Why does "everyone" insists on the NATO Counters that much ?

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Zaku

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Thats no a real comparison zaku None ever move Units that zoomed out.

Nitpicky, arent we? I used that screenshot because it was roughly the same zoom level in both games.
Here is a closer one:

full-10095-23953-war_1.jpg


It still gives far less information then the hoi4 interface and counters. The only difference between this and the more zoomed out version is the little flag and the name of the unit. Neither has real importance.
 
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You dont understand that the main Problem is not just the model itself (although it does feel in the way when looking at the map). Its the fact that those new Minicounter are less efficient showing Information visually. Not only they are extremely small, but they do not stack. So you have to sum up those tiny numbers for every province along the front to asses Situation. Higher stack are automatically captured by the eyes which saves alot of time. Yes you cant see exactly all unit types in a stack but it was never a bother because they are usually from the same type (with 2 -3 stack). Potent divison like Arm and Special Units also had priority showing up if i rememmber so you can safely assume that the second Division behind the Inf is also Inf or something worse. The Point is that those new minicounters which are the only Information source can be improved from the HoI Counters at the cost of those models which take all the space (atleast as an Option) instead of being so minimal.

You are still trying to pass off a false comparison. Of course it will be easier to get a vague impression with one system than a precise count with another. the comparison should either be the difficulty of getting a precise count, or the difficulty of a general impression. If people are seriously trying to claim that you can tell at a glance the difference between ten or eleven in a stack then they are deluded. Likewise, if they are trying to claim that adding 2 to 3 is a complex mathematical exercise then they are equally deluded.

vRVRqkR.png

The HoiIV mini counter is designed to be mini, to take up as little room as possible to save important screen space for the 3D model. It then merges with other counters from other provinces as you zoom out and takes center stage. It seems to display nation (flag), unit type (icon), strength and organization (bars), and the number of that type of unit (number). That is quite a bit of useful information on there. However, it does not look like the mini-counter has the necessary real estate to show states such as out of supply, out of fuel, upgrading, changing template, low on equipment, tech level, relative strength, or immersion stuff like unit name. Plus, the mini counter would be an inappropriate place to display that division specific information, because the mini- counter does not represent one division but rather many divisions, depending on whether you zoom in or zoom out. Those states are going to be displayed by the model, not the counter. Thus, you will see jumping jacks and push ups for training, marching for movement, maybe shivering in the cold, or holding out a mess kit when hungry. Either we are not going to get information from the models or we are going to have to interpret animations (some may say silly animations) of the models to get that information. One cool side effect is that we will be able to determine armor tech levels from the tank model, and we will have to learn the tank trees of every nation -- like the Matilda II was the 1936 British light tank, and the P.26/40 was the Italian equivalent of the Tiger I.

With the HOI3 counters you cant see that for any other than the top counter anyway, so it is a false differential.

That's good to know, but does the skull apply to both divisions or just one? And what happens when you zoom out and that counter merges with other counters?

So basically the same problem as with all the HOI3 counters hidden beneath the top one.

If any of you have actually read my post instead of cherry picking the top sentence for an Argument youde understand. Here it is again



Yes you have new morale and org bars but why taking out red and yellow triangles when out of supply or cant attack, defence and attack values and Division names? that red skull is barely noticable. Maybe you all have some 100 Inch Screens but with Laptops it really stresses the eye if you think of taking notice of them often. There is no way to justify saving place for models other than development cost. If anyone thinks that they are in any way informative, than i chanllenge them to manage the eastern front without the mini Counters under the Modell.

Again, you can only see that for one counter per province so you aren't losing out.

I dont know what you will mean by important,

It doesn't strike me as particularly controversial to suggest that knowing the type of unit is if not the absolutely most vital thing then certainly not far behind it. For example, in Zaku's post above, we can see that there is a theatre headquarters and one other unit in Warsaw, but we haven't a Scooby whether that other unit is a two battalion garrison division or an armoured division with two tanks, a motorised infantry and artillery. Quite a distinction, and it only becomes more pronounced as the number of divisions in a province increases.
 
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elpibeuruguayo

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I would use counters if I know how to read them. That is my only excuse for no having counters. :D
 

Direlda

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So let me preface this by providing some background on my gaming experience. I have not played HoI3. And while I've watched a let's play or two, that just isn't the same as actually playing the game. I have played various editions of Risk and some variants (Castle Risk and LotR Risk), various editions of Axis and Allies (including the 1998 computer game) and variants (primarily Pacific and Europe), games in the Civ series (and the spin-off/successor Call to Power II), games in the TW series (primarily Shogun 2), games in the HoMM series, EU4, and CK2 as well as games such as Wargame: Red Dragon, Sid Meier's Gettysburg, and games in the Close Combat series (especially CCIII: The Russian Front). I've also recently discovered the OCS games and am hoping to get OCS Korea: The Forgotten War for Christmas (in the meantime I'm getting used to the game using VASSAL). And I'm currently planning on getting HoI4.

So I understand that I can't speak to what functionality the counters in HoI3 have versus the functionality all of us can guess at in the models and counters present in HoI4 (let's face it, most of us haven't played the game and since the watching experience is different from the playing experience we won't really know the functionality of HoI4's system until we've been able to play it). But I can draw from my experience to guess at why Paradox made the decision to make the change they did.

From a marketing standpoint moving toward a system with giant models and counters that use less specialized symbols combined with widespread display choices ("health" bars and arabic numerals) makes a lot of sense. Many strategy games employ giant models. The tactics sub-genre often uses models, but they tend to be to-scale (or close to it). The wargame sub-genre often uses counters (generally NATO ones), though not always (some use blocks, such as the Holdfast series), and then there are the miniature wargames, which use models. Older editions of Risk used wooden blocks, but they seem to have switched to giant plastic soldiers. For board/tabletop games the strategy games with giant models are, in general, easier to find than the counter wargames. I have been in 7 Friendly Local Game Stores (FLGSs) around where I live and it is much easier to find the newest edition or variant of a game like Risk or Axis and Allies than counter wargames. If I drive or take the train about 4.5 hours south I can get to a FLGS with a decent selection of counter wargames, but that isn't really local to me. And with computer games the strategy games with giant models tend to be more well known than the wargames with counters. In other words, there appears to be a greater number of people who are familiar with giant models representing troops than people familiar with counters representing troops.

Getting as many people to buy your game as possible is generally a goal of most game studios. And so it seems that Paradox determined that moving to a system with giant models and less-specialized counters would help them achieve that goal. Granted, by not providing options to have the classic counter-style wargaming look it is likely that Paradox has alienated a portion of their player base and caused lost sales. Hopefully a future patch/expansion/other DLC will address this. Because these players are an important part of the HoI community. But I feel that the HoI4 system will open up the game to a lot more people, which is a good thing, because it means more money for Paradox, which means a larger development budget for the game's expansions.

Furthermore, as someone who is acclimating to NATO counters due to OCS Korea, I can say that they are not any more intuitive than giant models. After I have spent more time with NATO counters they will come to feel more intuitive. Right now one of my thoughts upon seeing the infantry symbol isn't that it represents crossed rifles and, therefore, infantry but that it looks like the start of a maths problem where I have to prove that two angles are equal to each other. That or St. Andrew's Cross. I know that the roman numerals at the top represent the size of the unit, though I still haven't gotten that completely memorized. A system that represented infantry with a sheep, reconnaissance with a fox, tanks with a rhino, and so forth would be rather odd, but if it were consistently used within a game and proper documentation were provided, such a system could work and might feel intuitive after a while (especially if the documentation provided the creative reasoning for the choices). Because at the end of the day, NATO counters, HoI4's giant models with counters, and the animal system are all representational. They provide an identifiable object for what is essentially a spreadsheet. Perhaps I should clamor for spreadsheet counters--let me have full transparency on the data modifications that occur as my units move about and take damage! :p

Interestingly enough the official documentation for NATO symbols is 376 to 400 pages long, granted some of that length might be from looking at the commented version, but there is at least 100 pages of symbols. Just look up the APP-6A. It's unclassified with unlimited distribution, so no worries there! Also, the "boxes" for the symbols varies with whether the unit is friendly, neutral, hostile, or unknown and there are truncations of the shapes to represent space/air and subsurface.
 
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No idea

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It doesn't strike me as particularly controversial to suggest that knowing the type of unit is if not the absolutely most vital thing then certainly not far behind it. For example, in Zaku's post above, we can see that there is a theatre headquarters and one other unit in Warsaw, but we haven't a Scooby whether that other unit is a two battalion garrison division or an armoured division with two tanks, a motorised infantry and artillery. Quite a distinction, and it only becomes more pronounced as the number of divisions in a province increases.

So what? Put a small box below the counters (just as it happens in HoI IV) and problem fixed. I think they should have made a better, improved version of the HoI III counters, not the very same ones.

And, on any case, I think quickly knowing where your units are going (or wether they are out of supplies, or affected by combat delay...) is far more important than knowing the exact kind of division. After all, I can already tell you with a 85% probability (more or less) what that "hidden" unit is going to be.
 

fabius

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Originally pro Nato Counters guy here. Heck I think I'd still try using them if there was an option.

But I concede that for me the stacks of counters were a pain. When there were more than 2 or 3 I could never see how many were there at a glance. And drag boxing around stacks to see what was there was too frequent. I think the new system may win me over.

Also I like Nato counters for the immersion. This combined with me finding the strength counter numbers too abstract meant that I used the name of the Division option.

This picture looks easier to read strengths and dispositions to me even though I think I prefer Nato counters so am looking forward to trying it out.

1 overview.jpg


That said I would like to see the functionality of the new counters. On stacks I would like to be able to click on the tank or infantry icon and bring that that type up alone. ANd have a way to click to bring the whole stack up rather than rubber banding so much like with HoI3
 
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Duke_Dave

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If you want historically correct ones you end up in a huge mess where you have to learn those signs anew with every nation. NATO signs are easy to access you can keep the wiki overview over them open on another screen or just print them while playing and many people have already encountered them during their military service or in politic/history books. Also they were created in the aftermath of world war 2 when it became clear that the western armies will cooperate on a stadard basis from now on and not just in case of an emergency or world war and therefore everything was done to make things easier so they might be not historically correct but they make life easier, in CK2 where the there were those many different names for the titles count/duke, etc. I found it sometimes extremly confusing especially when playing in the afghan region where you had dozens of different titles that all meant the same thing. It is better to have just one name/symbol for things and therefore make it easier to access
 
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safe-keeper

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Lately i have been thinking that all this argument is a bit pointless
Just lately :p ?

There is no way to justify saving place for models other than development cost. If anyone thinks that they are in any way informative, than i chanllenge them to manage the eastern front without the mini Counters under the Modell.
If you're not going to read what other people write to you, maybe you shouldn't complain about alleged cherry-picking. Just saying.
 
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Peter Wass

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So what? Put a small box below the counters (just as it happens in HoI IV) and problem fixed. I think they should have made a better, improved version of the HoI III counters, not the very same ones.

And, on any case, I think quickly knowing where your units are going (or wether they are out of supplies, or affected by combat delay...) is far more important than knowing the exact kind of division. After all, I can already tell you with a 85% probability (more or less) what that "hidden" unit is going to be.

Of course you're right. It doesn't matter at all whether the big stack of units moving up to the border are armoured divisions or militia. Silly of me to think it might.
 
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Septimius

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"Serious Wargame" Thats a good one.:D
How can a video game be serious? We play them for fun, even the more realistic types.
Some of you guys are so snobish, it's unbeliveable.

Huh. And why do I feel you are looking down your nose at others with that comment? At any rate, the idea behind wargaming has a very distinguished history, being used by the German General Staff, Sandhurst, West Point, et al. It is taken very seriously by those who command real troops. Computer simulations are just the latest iteration, and HOI is the best generalized WWII simulator around (eco-pol-mil aspects). To coin a phrase, some people take their fun seriously. That's why you get dozens of arguments about ratings of troops or stats of equipment within a 'game'. Sure I play games for fun, but the fun comes from the immersion: the ability to manipulate history, even in a fictionalized way, is powerful. Obviously, seeing ten mile high soldiers in a ground province is not immersive, no matter how well modeled. Seeing counters on a map is totally immersive. If you don't need the immersion, good for you. But for those of us who do, it is quite important that we have the option.
 
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Oakfan

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At any rate, the idea behind wargaming has a very distinguished history, being used by the German General Staff, Sandhurst, West Point, et al. It is taken very seriously by those who command real troops. Computer simulations are just the latest iteration, and HOI is the best generalized WWII simulator around (eco-pol-mil aspects)

I love the HOI series, closest thing I can get to WW2 grand strategy. Comparing this to wargames used in West Point, Sandhurts, etc. is down right funny. :p The simulations run in OCS are WAY differant then HOI, or any other war simulator to date. PDX are making HOI for the public, not for officer cadets. Lets keep that in perspective. No reason to go all "boot".

With that being said, I am on your side, I prefer counters for the immersion.
 

No idea

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Of course you're right. It doesn't matter at all whether the big stack of units moving up to the border are armoured divisions or militia. Silly of me to think it might.

I didnt say it was not important. What I said is that:

1. Simply add a little box below the counter and you have that "feature".
2. Knowing where the units are going is even more important than knowing what kind of units they are. Why?. Because 85% or more of the units present in the map are simple infantry units.
3. On top of that, given that divisions are going to be far more varied now (as you will have battallions instead of brigades/regiments to fill them), the value of knowing that it is an armoured or infantry unit is less than in HoI 3, as the exact composition of any given division will be more important in HoI IV than in HoI 3, where compositions werent so varied. Thus, in HoI IV, knowing that a particular division is "infantry" wont say as much as it said in HoI 3.
 

jamesd

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Of course, the solution is a Hoi3 type stackable counter in place of the 3D model used in conjunction with the HoiIV mini-counter.
Counters%20Strike%20Back.jpg

This is what I'd like to see when zoomed in. The stack height lets you know approximately how many divisions are present more or less instantly while the little info bars provide the details of exact numbers, types and condition of the divisions. I suspect I would find it easier to play with this than playing with the models. With the 3D terrain I may even choose the Paradox symbols over the NATO symbols.


This is what I'd like to see when zoomed out, with more information conveyed than was done so when zoomed out in HOI3.

All that Paradox needs to do to make a lot of people very happy is design counters that can be used instead of the models when zoomed in. Then people who prefer models can use the models and people who prefer counters can use the counters. Given the time it must take to create a 3D model and animate it, especially when the model changes with advances in technology, I would have thought that creating counters would be quite fast.
 
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Something I noticed in one of the play-throughs.


When you have two types of units in a province as seen in the screens below both the Infantry and the Mountain Infantry info boxes are clearly visible however when the Infantry Division begins to move north the Mountain Infantry info box is obscured, it now looks as if there is only an Infantry Division engaged in combat, a little later the second Info box reappears and it turns out it was the Mountain Division that was engaged in combat.


Spain1_zpsxidit9xc.jpg



spain2_zpsauqrk39c.jpg



spain3_zps79ucmzgo.jpg



A glitch caused by I presume the positioning of the model within the province but it does illustrate what I would consider a problem with the system.


A single province will now contain at its most simplest both a model and a single info box and both the model and the info box must work in tandem to display information accurately and this information should not be so easily disrupted by the actions of the player.


Almost from the day 1 it struck me that Paradox could have opened a Pandora’s box of problems that would not have arisen if they had stuck to the HOI III formula of allowing the player to use either the Models or a HOI III type Counter.


The fact that the info boxes can also jump across the screen and merge independent of where the actual location of the unit is only adds to the likelihood of there being confusion of course its hard to say without playing.


It will be interesting to see how the system handles large amounts of Divisions to date we have not seen a large offensive on the scale of Barbarossa.
 
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Gwayne

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Conclusion, we need 64 bits Nato Counters that do push-ups. Then everyone is happy I guess.
 
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Praetori

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Conclusion, we need 64 bits Nato Counters that do push-ups. Then everyone is happy I guess.
Or you just put the appropriate letter (D for friendly exercise/ie pushups) in the D field on the counter, and you can also add the combat effectiveness in the K field to the right while displaying the time until completion in W field to the top left. And display several counters un-stacked in a province to give you a at-a-glance look on what's going on without a single mouse-click.

I'm all in favor for 3D models, uncluttered GUI and ease of access but the debate is ridiculous. The current game only has on-map soldiers, no counters and that's that.
That being said there's simply no better standardized way (today) to show military information on a map than counters/symbols with the text and filling fields used properly, if it's suitable to have that in a game that caters to more than the die-hard wargaming-crowd on launch is debatable however.
With the ability to have tool-tips on mouseover I would claim that NATO-counters in a modern game isn't a problem but it would take significant developer effort to make it user-friendly, and then some people will still think it's butt-ugly compared to having soldiers and tanks running around the map.

HOI3 Counters, no thanks due to the stacks and cluttering compared to the now sleek GUI of HOI4. A new counter-system utilizing all the correct markers as an alternative to the models as DLC? Yes please.
 
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