Why does "everyone" insists on the NATO Counters that much ?

[No idea]

oh come on, without taking further action you can't know this in a stack of HoI3 counters either. You see the top counter and for the rest you need to select or click through them. There's no number of the types of divisions in a province, just a stack. Is it a stack of infantry or is something else mixed in there? How many?

Spoiler: like here

What's the strength of the divisions then? The new version is definitly not less clear than the old way. I prefer the new way, it gives me an acual number of divisions of a certain type.

Certainly the small number below the model is a good addition. They could have added it to a new, improved counter, instead of giving us models that give info in a far less clear way.

Just look at what you can see with a 3 seconds glance in many HoI 3 screenshots and in many of the HoI IV ones we have seen so far.

 

[Soranya]

There will be no NATO counters in this game. Anyone who insists there will be, clearly doesn't understand what we're asking about. And personally I don't care if they understand it or not. I won't buy this game, because there are already better wargames out there for serious wargamers. Sorry if you don't like it, but there are in fact serious wargames and then there are games like HoI4 and TW. HoI3 approximated a serious wargame, implementing an OOB, NATO counters and detailed logistics. HoI4 will be a fine video game for those who have a superficial interest in WWII.

Can you (as in the group who wants the HOI3 counters) stop calling them NATO counters and call them HOI3 Counters?
B.c. to everybody not familiar with the debate this is horribly confusing and missleading - resulting in threads like this one, where half of the debate is about what actually is meant by NATO counters.

 

[TheOrangeGuy]

And therein lies the rub. If you don't have NATO counters memorized, you need a 115 page field manual to get all of it...

The symbols will have 15 pages each?

And you counted 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 tile icons on your stack? or did you just eyeball it 'looks like 4'? or did you select and count?

I'm pretty sure most people eyeball it and think "5", not so difficult actually. If you have 5 apples in front of you, do you need to count them to know how many they are? 1,2,3,4,5.. 5 apples!

Every single bit of information that can be shown via a 'counter' can be shown just as easily with a pictographic sprite. IF (and it is a huge if) the graphics artist does a good job. The problem is that the 'sprites' from old HOI games were basically not sufficiently informative. A single soldier, that is either moving or not, tells me diddly squat about the actual forces in the region.

Maybe a sprite can show one kind of information, but I challenge you to explain how a sprite will show multiple states at the same time? Out of supply and training for example, high attrition and training, out of supply and high attrition? These can easily be added to a counter, small skull, red boarder, small T for training. Add moving to some of them!

 

[Peter Wass]

Just look at what you can see with a 3 seconds glance in many HoI 3 screenshots and in many of the HoI IV ones we have seen so far.

Unless there is only one division in the province, it is rather less for the HOI3 counters, including the single most important fact.

 

[GsusNSV]

Why are people still arguing that HoI 4 won't show them enough information, because the sprite don't show it? Really, it is not Sprite only. It is both (Sprite + counter).
So can we please stop with this "the sprite does not show us anything" crap. Because that is not the case for HoI 4.
Either some people won't look at the pictures or just happily ignore what was shown.

 

[zivf22]

You dont understand that the main Problem is not just the model itself (although it does feel in the way when looking at the map). Its the fact that those new Minicounter are less efficient showing Information visually. Not only they are extremely small, but they do not stack. So you have to sum up those tiny numbers for every province along the front to asses Situation. Higher stack are automatically captured by the eyes which saves alot of time. Yes you cant see exactly all unit types in a stack but it was never a bother because they are usually from the same type (with 2 -3 stack). Potent divison like Arm and Special Units also had priority showing up if i rememmber so you can safely assume that the second Division behind the Inf is also Inf or something worse. The Point is that those new minicounters which are the only Information source can be improved from the HoI Counters at the cost of those models which take all the space (atleast as an Option) instead of being so minimal.

 

[tommylotto]

The HoiIV mini counter is designed to be mini, to take up as little room as possible to save important screen space for the 3D model. It then merges with other counters from other provinces as you zoom out and takes center stage. It seems to display nation (flag), unit type (icon), strength and organization (bars), and the number of that type of unit (number). That is quite a bit of useful information on there. However, it does not look like the mini-counter has the necessary real estate to show states such as out of supply, out of fuel, upgrading, changing template, low on equipment, tech level, relative strength, or immersion stuff like unit name. Plus, the mini counter would be an inappropriate place to display that division specific information, because the mini- counter does not represent one division but rather many divisions, depending on whether you zoom in or zoom out. Those states are going to be displayed by the model, not the counter. Thus, you will see jumping jacks and push ups for training, marching for movement, maybe shivering in the cold, or holding out a mess kit when hungry. Either we are not going to get information from the models or we are going to have to interpret animations (some may say silly animations) of the models to get that information. One cool side effect is that we will be able to determine armor tech levels from the tank model, and we will have to learn the tank trees of every nation -- like the Matilda II was the 1936 British light tank, and the P.26/40 was the Italian equivalent of the Tiger I.

 

[GsusNSV]

The counter can and will display if anything is not right with the division.

The orange bar should show equipment (green = Org). Red Skull should be for attrition.

 

[tommylotto]

That's good to know, but does the skull apply to both divisions or just one? And what happens when you zoom out and that counter merges with other counters?

 

[GsusNSV]

Guess if at least one has a problem it will show. So you see, ah there is a problem, better check it out.

 

[safe-keeper]

You dont understand that the main Problem is not just the model itself (although it does feel in the way when looking at the map). Its the fact that those new Minicounter are less efficient showing Information visually. Not only they are extremely small, but they do not stack. So you have to sum up those tiny numbers for every province along the front to asses Situation

No. When you zoom out, they merge, showing the exact number of each unit. With stacks of NATO counters, you can only tell what unit the topmost counter represents, and then you have to mouse-over or select each stack to see its exact make-up.

If there's anything the new HOI4 counters aren't, it's inefficient. I love how they show morale and org, myself. Far more useful than the info they provided in HOI3.

Why are people still arguing that HoI 4 won't show them enough information, because the sprite don't show it? Really, it is not Sprite only. It is both (Sprite + counter).

In other words, exactly like in HOI3. I honestly do not understand this either.

Either some people won't look at the pictures or just happily ignore what was shown.

Yeah. I don't like accusing people of deliberately misrepresenting facts, but sometimes, you know...

 

[zivf22]

If any of you have actually read my post instead of cherry picking the top sentence for an Argument youde understand. Here it is again

Higher stack are automatically captured by the eyes which saves alot of time. Yes you cant see exactly all unit types in a stack but it was never a bother because they are usually from the same type (with 2 -3 stack). Potent divison like Arm and Special Units also had priority showing up if i rememmber so you can safely assume that the second Division behind the Inf is also Inf or something worse. The Point is that those new minicounters which are the only Information source can be improved from the HoI Counters at the cost of those models which take all the space (atleast as an Option) instead of being so minimal.

Yes you have new morale and org bars but why taking out red and yellow triangles when out of supply or cant attack, defence and attack values and Division names? that red skull is barely noticable. Maybe you all have some 100 Inch Screens but with Laptops it really stresses the eye if you think of taking notice of them often. There is no way to justify saving place for models other than development cost. If anyone thinks that they are in any way informative, than i chanllenge them to manage the eastern front without the mini Counters under the Modell.

 

[Zaku]

that red skull is barely noticable. Maybe you all have some 100 Inch Screens but with Laptops it really stresses the eye if you think of taking notice of them often.

Look, if you have eye problems then go to a doctor.
I just watched a video and a few screenshots on my 15,6 laptop and you can see them just fine and its very visible on my 1080p monitors.

 

[benice1234]

What I still don't get is why peoples call the 3d models of soldiers sprites.
Its 3d models not sprites, right or am I wrong?

Sprites is so 1994 and to me will always be stuff like this:

You're wrong, technically. 3D models are sprites. I don't know why people think otherwise. Nintendo marketing campaigns? Maybe.

 

[No idea]

Unless there is only one division in the province, it is rather less for the HOI3 counters, including the single most important fact.

I dont know what you will mean by important, but simply trying to see where your units are going is a total pain with the models. Simply look at screenshots with more than ten or twenty units

 

[zivf22]

Look, if you have eye problems then go to a doctor.
I just watched a video and a few screenshots on my 15,6 laptop and you can see them just fine and its very visible on my 1080p Monitors.

Look at the swiss flag the cross is one Pixel wide. thiner than the font size we use. And it doesnt even get bigger when zooming in.

 

[Zaku]

Let's compare the two games.
I find the HOI4 interface and counters much better in giving me information about the front then the interface and counters in HOI3.

It's more clear about the size of the opposing forces, and I didn't even mention how much better it looks.

 

[No idea]

Lately i have been thinking that all this argument is a bit pointless. I sincerely think that counters with solid colours can give more info in a much better to see at a glance way.

But you know? That is just relevant if the info is relevant. With thebattle planner the game is going to play itself to some extent so i think all the info we are so worried about will be pointless, as the game plays itself once we have made our plans.

I know we will be able to micro the battle but the game it is not optimized for micro,and i think that was confirmed by Podcat several months ago. So, one of the reasons pds went the way they have gone might be that the info we think we need or would like to get, it is not as relevant any longer, because everything is made with the battle plannner and automation on mind, and if it is automated, then the info is less relevant. Or at least the relevant info is different from the one we think is relevant.

 

[tommylotto]

I agree that the vanilla counters in Hoi3 looked atrocious, particularly when zoomed out so that you were using the counter graphic instead of the mapcounter graphic and when you were zoomed out so far that the counters did not stack. Mods like mine made the counters much more attractive at all zoom levels. But even so, with Hoi3 you see movement indicators, whereas in HoiIV you will need to zoom in to see where the models are marching.

That being said, I think there is an unfair comparison going on. I like the HoiIV mini-counter and think it is a good addition. It is not a question of either Hoi3 counters or HoiIV models plus mini-counter, it is a question of Hoi3 counters vs. just the models. My preference would be to have both the Hoi3 counter and the HoiIV mini counter, where the 3D model is replaced by a stackable Hoi3-like counter AND you get the info provided by the HoiIV mini-counter as you zoom in and out. Win-win. See my mock-up on the previous page.

 

[zivf22]

Thats no a real comparison zaku None ever move Units that zoomed out.