Why does "everyone" insists on the NATO Counters that much ?

[Peter Wass]

For the above example, one province will have 4 mini-counters in it and your brain will have to go 1+2+1+1=5 to figure out how many divisions are in that province, whereas you would be able to estimate the amount of divisions from a stack of counters at a glance by judging the stack's height.

I'd hope that anyone playing the game would be able to count to five.

More seriously, you're not comparing like with like. You're complaining that it will take more effort to get a precise count than it would to get a guesstimate with the old tiles. In reality, even if your arithmetic is poor, you can get as good an estimate from the number of different types of division and how many of each as you could from guessing the height of a stack, and if you wanted an accurate count it would take longer to count the tokens than to do a quick sum. This also ignores the fact that you only knew what the top token was. If a stack has six tokens in it, it makes all the difference in the world if that is an armoured and five militia or five armoured and a mechanised.

 

[Peter Wass]

It is my understanding that there will only be one model displayed per province. So, if you have 1 marine, 2 infantry, 1 cavalry and 1 armor all in one province, only one model (probably armor) would be displayed. However, if the divisions in a single province start doing different things, then they each appear overlapping and it becomes a mess. See, the infantry man emerging from the horse's ass and shooting towards the east, while another emerges from the same ass and marches south.

On the other hand, there will be a separate mini-counter in every province for each type of division type in a province. This gives good information, but I think this will look ridiculous. For the above example, one province will have 4 mini-counters in it and your brain will have to go 1+2+1+1=5 to figure out how many divisions are in that province, whereas you would be able to estimate the amount of divisions from a stack of counters at a glance by judging the stack's height. The mini-counter gives you more detailed information, but requires more brain work and tells you less at just a glance. Also, a mod that seeks to add a bunch of unit types (and thus a bunch of division types) like Black Ice will quickly become unmanageable as each province is likely to have a long list of division types in it and a long list of mini-counters.

You don't need to tell me this. I also think that the interface in HOI4 is far better then the one in HOI3.
I liked the NATO counters back in previous HOI games, but I think this new mini counter is just as good.



I don't agree. It's easier and more precise to add together a few simple numbers then to estimate the number of divisions based on the "length" of a stack. I mean we are playing with a strategy game, elementay school level of counting is required to play these kind of games.

It wasn't you that I thought needed telling.

 

[Hiiri]

Weren't HoI3 stacks capped at 4 or 5 anyways? In HoI2 I think there was no limit and the stacks were sometimes ridiculously high.

 

[Dercius]

We want counters because they are manly.
Anyone not liking counters over sprites should get his mancard revoked.

Now seriously, its easier and faster to get the info with the counters, once you get used to them. And it doesnt take longer than 5 minutes to learn what they mean. On the other hand sprites are confusing, is that a marine unit, mountain unit, infantry unit, militia unit, garrison unit???? Yeah, I know everyone is kind off able to distinguish US uniforms from the different branches during ww2 period.But what about Romania,Japan, China, Brazil, Argentina, Spain, Fance, etc..... should you get to know each different country uniforms. Off course not, but you miss time trying to know what is what.

Nobody wants to impose the use of counters, people just want the option to use them instead of the imposition of using the sprites.

 

[Hiiri]

I present to you one italian infantry division with full strength and organization ready for action.

 

[Peter Wass]

its easier and faster to get the info with the counters, once you get used to them. And it doesnt take longer than 5 minutes to learn what they mean.

Except that it isn't. The HOI3 counters only told you about the top one in the stack. The notion that you could instantly tell exactly what was going on in a province is fantasy.

 

[Peter Wass]

I present to you one italian infantry division with full strength and organization ready for action.

Quite, and if there was also an armoured division, you'd know about both of them, not just the armour.

 

[DocMorningstar]

People who want NATO counters want them because the NATO set is standardized and they have them memorized, so they can get the info they need at a glance. Simple really. I'll play with the NATO option turned on, myself. To each, their own.

And therein lies the rub. If you don't have NATO counters memorized, you need a 115 page field manual to get all of it...

Can some from the anti Counter guys please explain to me how you are giong to menage the eastern front? 3d Units are not stackable like Counters so you cant see on the map whether you have 1,2,3,4 or 5+ divisions in a province without selecting the enitre stack in a province every time (and you cant even select enemy stack). A 3d soldier also doesnt tell me if its a marine, mounateer paratrooper or an ordinary infantry Division. How will you see weak Points in enemy lines without clicking anything (for rxample a vulnrable province with just 2 Division where every there are 4 along the border)? How will you quickly see if most of your stack in a province are moving(stationary HoI 3 Counters stack differently than moving ones)? In the end it will just be an incomprehensable forest of 3d soldiers screwing around.
Please explain how you intend to manage anything other than just selecting all Division and right clicking moscow?

And you counted 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 tile icons on your stack? or did you just eyeball it 'looks like 4'? or did you select and count?

Every single bit of information that can be shown via a 'counter' can be shown just as easily with a pictographic sprite. IF (and it is a huge if) the graphics artist does a good job. The problem is that the 'sprites' from old HOI games were basically not sufficiently informative. A single soldier, that is either moving or not, tells me diddly squat about the actual forces in the region.

Face it, a sprite is just a different representation of the same information that is on a counter. You just like counters more, because they feel more wargamey. And that's fine. I like counters myself, but, done well, sprites can convey just as much information, and they can do it in a way that is more accessible to non-grognards.

Quite, and if there was also an armoured division, you'd know about both of them, not just the armour.

Yes, this, with a biscuit. 'Wait, where did the )(@(&# russians get 6 armored divisions together... f*****k'

 

[zivf22]

Counters in HoI 3 showed much more Information. Like attack defense value, and whether a unit can attack or out of supply. That rectangle under the model if practically a limited mini Counter. Face it, without the small rectangles under the Modell, you woudlnt know anything other than General Division type. Those reactangles Show less Information and are considerebly smaller. Just look at the flag and those bars. you can barely recognize them without stressing the eyes.

 

[Peter Wass]

For all but one division in a province, the HOI3 counters didn't even tell you what type it was.

 

[Modestus]

I present to you one italian infantry division with full strength and organization ready for action.

What happens when you have two Infantry Divisions and one is at half strength?

 

[Peter Wass]

As opposed to HOI3 counters where you'd know you had two divisions but you'd only know what type one of them was.

 

[Sloeberjong]

What happens when you have two Infantry Divisions and one is at half strength?

oh come on, without taking further action you can't know this in a stack of HoI3 counters either. You see the top counter and for the rest you need to select or click through them. There's no number of the types of divisions in a province, just a stack. Is it a stack of infantry or is something else mixed in there? How many?

Spoiler: like here

What's the strength of the divisions then? The new version is definitly not less clear than the old way. I prefer the new way, it gives me an acual number of divisions of a certain type.

 

[tommylotto]

I could see at a glance (of literally less than half of a second) that the Italians have the entire French frontier well defended and the French are concentrated in Nice but have a week spot (one division and a useless HQ) in Barcellonette. To get more information I would have to mouse over the province and look at the tool tip.

 

[Hiiri]

What happens when you have two Infantry Divisions and one is at half strength?

I don't know. Stack average? I don't even know if the bars really are str and org, but it seems most likely.

It's difficult to talk about this since none of us have any concrete experience with HoI4.

 

[Sloeberjong]

And how would the new system not convey the exact same thing? The "counters" would be there with the number of divisions. Depending on zoomlvl it's per province, region, country or theatre...i guess.

However, you've answered exactly zero of my questions. The new system answers them for at least one division - Infantry, full strenth, full org. I don't know yet if the strength conveys this for 1 division or for all of the same type on average at that location. Average would be best as an overview IMO. Having one understrength division surrounded by strong ones isn't too bad. Then there's the knowledge that battleplans create defensive perameters. So knowing exactly what province has what strength isn't THAT important anymore...the line will be held (supposedly).

Spoiler: like here

At a glance: There 25 divisions coming from west, most are full strength/org. and they are opposed by a thin line of the polish army (1 div. deep 12 total). 3 are armoured divisions coming from northwest. This all without any click and a litte bit of addition...

Not saying the stacks aren't clear, I've played with them alot and I know what's what. BUT I do like the new system as wel, it gives absolute numbers AND the str/org (I assume). Both of those are way more important to me than att/def. For those I value terrain and type of division more because I know the basic makup of my divisions and the tech that I'm at. Though it would be nice to have those in the little box as well.

Anyway, once again in this discussion it comes down to personal preference. In general I like what Paradox is doing with HoI4. If you don't, then well...too bad I'm afraid. This is not something they've said they're going to change. Not to be rude, but you can either accept it, mod it or refuse to play it. Personally I'm not too sure about the little guys, it might be unclear because of the sheer amount of models, but I'm going to accept that this is what they chose and I'm going to trust that it's going to work...if not I'll admit being wrong about it.

 

[tommylotto]

At a glance: There 25 divisions coming from west, most are full strength/org. and they are opposed by a thin line of the polish army (1 div. deep 12 total). 3 are armoured divisions coming from northwest. This all without any click and a litte bit of addition...

That is not at a glance. That is after a studied analysis where your brain was required to read the counter for each province and where you had to decipher a rune you were taught as a child to stand for the concept of 1, 2 or 3. You may even have to do some math here or there. It will not make much of a big deal on a narrow front like North Africa or when you can pause and study. But on a huge front like Russia the ability to immediately identify stack height is something the new system will not allow. It is not a matter of counting to 5, it is a matter of having to count to 5 thirty times to get a quick evaluation of your front line.

I am not trying to convince anyone that one system is better for them. If you think the new system is preferable, good for you. I am just trying to point out that the old system had some advantages that the new system will not have.

Of course, the solution is a Hoi3 type stackable counter in place of the 3D model used in conjunction with the HoiIV mini-counter.

 

[shepherd352]

The OP asked why some people preferred counters. My preference comes from two main influences:
1. One of the first wargames which I played was called "Russian Campaign" and it used NATO like symbols. Every time I conduct Operation Barbarossa (using counters), I remember the great times I had playing board games so long ago.
2. I did 20 years in the military. Counters are 2nd nature to me. For me, it's like looking at an analogue watch: I don't need to determine exactly where the hands are, just a glance and I know the time.

My reasons are specific to me. I don't judge people who prefer sprites and I would prefer others not to judge me just because I prefer counters.

I am disappointed with the Paradox approach to this. I understand their desire to attract more people to HOI4 but I don't accept their reasoning to exclude a real counters option. They have indicated that a counter solution was too difficult to use with a 3D map but I would be very happy with a result similar to what tommylotto has drawn above.

Any game is a balance of levels of abstraction. The strength of Paradox games has been that they actively support modding, so people can adjust the game to their preferences. I will buy this game as soon as it is available and I will play it in its vanilla form. I will also be keen to apply a counters mod, as soon as it is available.

 

[ryan404000]

I mean, I want counters because:

A) I'm used to it from HoI3
B) I enjoy the look and feel of them
C) It adds more realism, when using the counters in HoI3 it makes me feel like I'm actually planning a war and that just gets me more engrossed in the game.

 

[Peter Wass]

That is not at a glance. That is after a studied analysis where your brain was required to read the counter for each province and where you had to decipher a rune you were taught as a child to stand for the concept of 1, 2 or 3. You may even have to do some math here or there. It will not make much of a big deal on a narrow front like North Africa or when you can pause and study. But on a huge front like Russia the ability to immediately identify stack height is something the new system will not allow. It is not a matter of counting to 5, it is a matter of having to count to 5 thirty times to get a quick evaluation of your front line.

I am not trying to convince anyone that one system is better for them. If you think the new system is preferable, good for you. I am just trying to point out that the old system had some advantages that the new system will not have.

Of course, the solution is a Hoi3 type stackable counter in place of the 3D model used in conjunction with the HoiIV mini-counter.

You're still demanding a level of detail from the new which is not available from the old. At a glance you don't know any better the number of divisions than you do with the new, and you know far less about what the divisions are. With the new you can easily see in the example above that there is one motorised and two infantry divisions attacking the armour. With the old counters you'd know that there was a motorised, but the other two could be anything from single police battalions to infantry divisions with attached anti-tank. I'm sorry, but I just refuse to accept either that the majority of players are inumerate or that it makes no difference what type of unit is in a province.