Why does "everyone" insists on the NATO Counters that much ?

[zivf22]

No its an honest question. i cant imagine that 100 3d models on a front which barely give any Information to me are managable.

 

[zivf22]

So how will you quickly recognize enemy weak Points along a front without stackable Units on the map?

 

[Zaku]

So how will you quickly recognize enemy weak Points along a front without stackable Units on the map?

What are you talking about? The game has stackable counters.

 

[Hiiri]

So how will you quickly recognize enemy weak Points along a front without stackable Units on the map?

I look at the number presented. Big number means there are lots of units. Small number means there are few units.

Also, in HoI3 you couldn't see what units you had without manually checking either. It only displayed the top one. And if I understand correctly, these actually show if you have infantry/armor in the province.

Edit: Talking about how useful a feature WE HAVEN'T USED YET is seems a bit silly.

 

[Zaku]

And if I understand correctly, these actually show if you have infantry/armor in the province.

I think you are right, different types of divisions in the same province stack seperately:

 

[zivf22]

Thank you for the clarification. Those rectangles and numbers are so tiny i just never really noticed them. Visual recognition is still faster though than reading those tiny numbers. That small helmet doesnt give any additional Information unless it stand for ordinary infantry. I will also Need magnifying glasses just to see those flags.

 

[Zaku]

Thank you for the clarification. Those rectangles and numbers are so tiny i just never really noticed them. Visual recognition is still faster though than reading those tiny numbers. That small helmet doesnt give any additional Information unless it stand for ordinary infantry.

You can choose any icon for any of your division templates. Default for infantry is the helmet, but you can change it to crossed rifles, nato symbols, or even to an unicorn-head if you wish to.

 

[zivf22]

But will it generalise all infentery types to one Symbol, or can it be differentiated between Gebirgsjäger marine paratroopers? Do you also admit that the informtion given is to tiny right?

 

[Hiiri]

Visual recognition is still faster though than reading those tiny numbers.

This could probably be solved with some tweaking. Like... strong stacks are more bright color. Or the icon slightly grows in size.

 

[Zaku]

But will it generalise all infentery types to one Symbol, or can it be differentiated between Gebirgsjäger marine paratroopers?

No, it won't
As I said you can chose your icon for each division template you have.
Here is the interface for it:
(Picture posted by G-sus in an other topic)

 

[Hiiri]

Do you also admit that the informtion given is to tiny right?

Looks fine to me.

 

[zivf22]

It still doesnt make any sense that the only Thing that gives you Information on the map is in thoe tiny boxes where as those giant soldiers which dont tell me anything take all the place. And its not like they stand out from the map. They are sometimes easily camouflaged which is only to be expeted from modern uniforms

 

[EntropyAvatar]

It still doesnt make any sense that the only Thing that gives you Information on the map is in thoe tiny boxes where as those giant soldiers which dont tell me anything take all the place. And its not like they stand out from the map. They are sometimes easily camouflaged which is only to be expeted from modern uniforms

The info boxes are a constant size in pixels, while the soldier models grow and shrink with the zoom level. So the info boxes tend to look tiny because the screenshots tend to be highly zoomed in. They look a lot better when a bit zoomed out.

Still, it would be nice to have options like "large or small" info-boxes and "large or small" unit models, control the zoom levels where the models disappear, etc.

 

[CocoCincinnati]

It's all about the option. I prefer the counters but I want people who prefer the models to have the models. For me, the counters add several things. More information at a glance so it makes playing and planning easier. The counters mean less clutter on the map as well which also aids in ease of play, if the models are always present at closer zoom levels then I will eventually just have to get used to ignoring them because I will never actually use them msyelf, I will always use the symbols, whether they are NATO counters or some other kind of symbol. Lastly , immersion, this is a big one as seeing a map with the counters gives me the feeling of actually being in charge of a grand campaign that the models just don't do. (Again all of this is for me and I realize it might not apply to everybody, thus why the option is preferable).

 

[Sir Garnet]

Models work nicely in where the density of formations is usually low, such as in EU4 where I've bought model packs.

In HOI3 the NATO counters are much more functional from the information point of view (because familiar since childhood) and make a better impression and are more manageable when density is high. In HOI4, I like the overall look of the HOI4 icons at the strategic level and I might learn to like the models for close-up if density is low. Does need the test of battle.

 

[zivf22]

It's all about the option. I prefer the counters but I want people who prefer the models to have the models. For me, the counters add several things. More information at a glance so it makes playing and planning easier. The counters mean less clutter on the map as well which also aids in ease of play, if the models are always present at closer zoom levels then I will eventually just have to get used to ignoring them because I will never actually use them msyelf, I will always use the symbols, whether they are NATO counters or some other kind of symbol. Lastly , immersion, this is a big one as seeing a map with the counters gives me the feeling of actually being in charge of a grand campaign that the models just don't do. (Again all of this is for me and I realize it might not apply to everybody, thus why the option is preferable).

Exactly. favouring HoI 3 style Counters means promoting a System where both Options existed. Right now everyone are forced to use thosemvery uninformative models.

 

[Zaku]

Exactly. favouring HoI 3 style Counters means promoting a System where both Options existed. Right now everyone are forced to use thosemvery uninformative models.

You are not forced to do anything.
Game will be released with models + counters both enabled.
If you don't like the models, then it is easy to mod them out.

 

[tommylotto]

I think you are right, different types of divisions in the same province stack seperately:

It is my understanding that there will only be one model displayed per province. So, if you have 1 marine, 2 infantry, 1 cavalry and 1 armor all in one province, only one model (probably armor) would be displayed. However, if the divisions in a single province start doing different things, then they each appear overlapping and it becomes a mess. See, the infantry man emerging from the horse's ass and shooting towards the east, while another emerges from the same ass and marches south.

On the other hand, there will be a separate mini-counter in every province for each type of division type in a province. This gives good information, but I think this will look ridiculous. For the above example, one province will have 4 mini-counters in it and your brain will have to go 1+2+1+1=5 to figure out how many divisions are in that province, whereas you would be able to estimate the amount of divisions from a stack of counters at a glance by judging the stack's height. The mini-counter gives you more detailed information, but requires more brain work and tells you less at just a glance. Also, a mod that seeks to add a bunch of unit types (and thus a bunch of division types) like Black Ice will quickly become unmanageable as each province is likely to have a long list of division types in it and a long list of mini-counters.

 

[Peter Wass]

I think you are right, different types of divisions in the same province stack seperately:

If anything, this gives more information at a glance. Looking at the German just to the right of "OKW" on the map, you can see straight away that there is one armoured division and three infantry divisions. With the HOI3 counters you would have known that there were four divisions of which one was armoured. If you have an aesthetic preference, that is fine, whichever way it happens to run, but claiming that the HOI3 counters give more information at a glance is at best disingenuous.

 

[Zaku]

If anything, this gives more information at a glance. Looking at the German just to the right of "OKW" on the map, you can see straight away that there is one armoured division and three infantry divisions. With the HOI3 counters you would have known that there were four divisions of which one was armoured. If you have an aesthetic preference, that is fine, whichever way it happens to run, but claiming that the HOI3 counters give more information at a glance is at best disingenuous.

You don't need to tell me this. I also think that the interface in HOI4 is far better then the one in HOI3.
I liked the NATO counters back in previous HOI games, but I think this new mini counter is just as good.

For the above example, one province will have 4 mini-counters in it and your brain will have to go 1+2+1+1=5 to figure out how many divisions are in that province, whereas you would be able to estimate the amount of divisions from a stack of counters at a glance by judging the stack's height.

I don't agree. It's easier and more precise to add together a few simple numbers then to estimate the number of divisions based on the "length" of a stack. I mean we are playing with a strategy game, elementay school level of counting is required to play these kind of games.