Why does "everyone" insists on the NATO Counters that much ?

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TheCrimsonMajor

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I've been on these forums for a good while, and the debate over counters v. sprites in the DD#11 thread was the most disrespectful, vitriol-fueled, and utterly un-constructive "discussion" I've ever seen here. While I agree that in theory every issue deserves to be debated thoroughly, maybe this is one that should be left to rest. The devs appear to have made their choice, and many people on these forums appear to be unable to conduct themselves civilly when this issue is brought up.
 
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KiwiNoob

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Meh. Even when people are going completely bonkers if you're able read between the lines you can still get a lot of information out of their poorly worded rage fuelled responses.

If I had to try to decipher the 'unconstructive discussion' I would probably find that the root cause is that not having the counters is going to make the game worse for a fair number of people.

The main driver of this in my opinion is that people have seen the video's and screenshots of the alternative and clearly don't think that it's good enough to justify the removal of a really good system (HOI3 style NATO-counters).

PDS should convince people to use their new interface by making it the better one not by removing the other options.
 
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KiwiNoob

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It seems that in Paradox discussions counters cause climate change...

Well the 1930's was when the first signs of serious climate change science began to appear. Perhaps it should be modelled?

How about a mechanic where if the total number of oil burning units on the map exceeds a certain number and stays above that number until 2050 all the coastal provinces disappear.
 
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Soranya

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Well the 1930's was when the first signs of serious climate change science began to appear. Perhaps it should be modelled?

How about a mechanic where if the total number of oil burning units on the map exceeds a certain number and stays above that number until 2050 all the coastal provinces disappear.

Not the one in the Netherlands - they know how to deal with too much water.

Back to the never ending story i mean debate:
Judging by the screenshots the new counters really may be a step back. Also i will wait till release and some expirience with the new system before I can say for sure.
The thing is, i really like the 3D modells, but I fear that it will be like in HOI3 where the modells just can not keep up informaiton wise with the Counters... (And this is not CK2 or EU4 where you only focus on a few single provinces, but you have huge Frontlines where Information and Overview at a glacne is muchmore vital.)

We will see i guess?
 

Tharkun

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There will be no NATO counters in this game. Anyone who insists there will be, clearly doesn't understand what we're asking about. And personally I don't care if they understand it or not. I won't buy this game, because there are already better wargames out there for serious wargamers. Sorry if you don't like it, but there are in fact serious wargames and then there are games like HoI4 and TW. HoI3 approximated a serious wargame, implementing an OOB, NATO counters and detailed logistics. HoI4 will be a fine video game for those who have a superficial interest in WWII.
 
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Acaios

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there's nothing that prevent you from learning 5 symbols.
They are developed specifically to let every soldier of 28 NATO members (most with different languages) know the situation on the field just by looking at a map.

anyway, everyone is pushing to be able to choose, not to remove sprites at all.
 

Acaios

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There will be no NATO counters in this game. Anyone who insists there will be, clearly doesn't understand what we're asking about. And personally I don't care if they understand it or not. I won't buy this game, because there are already better wargames out there for serious wargamers. Sorry if you don't like it, but there are in fact serious wargames and then there are games like HoI4 and TW. HoI3 approximated a serious wargame, implementing an OOB, NATO counters and detailed logistics. HoI4 will be a fine video game for those who have a superficial interest in WWII.

unfortunatly u are right.
Hoi has always been a game for hardcore players in paradox's roaster.
They now decided to bring it to the crowds, and this is the result.
 
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Zoob

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Always got to love it when someone is like:

"Reasoned Argument 1"

"Reasoned Argument 2"

"Reasoned Argument 3"

"Petty Adhominem"

"Unnecessary belittling of alternatives"

Seriously, it cheapens your argument, and it cheapens you when you sink to this!
 
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Gr1pen

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I imagine the whole Hearts of Iron 4 crew sitting there with a beer laughing at this(/yet another) thread :D

Wish someone from the team would just clear up the whole counters/models confusion and what is going to happen( in a sticky).

Personally I think the best option is to be able to:
- Turn on/off the 3D model. It's already implemented really as if you zoom out they disappear :p
- The option for the new counter to display NATO (or country specific) symbols
 
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Wish someone from the team would just clear up the whole counters/models confusion and what is going to happen( in a sticky).

Personally I think the best option is to be able to:
- Turn on/off the 3D model. It's already implemented really as if you zoom out they disappear :p
- The option for the new counter to display NATO (or country specific) symbols
But Podcat did actually. Okay not in a "sticky" and the actual answer is hidden in a thread over a year old.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...nters-discussion.814718/page-19#post-18377764

- They defnitly won't include a option to just turn them off. Maybe as an DLC later on, if there is interrest (including a 2D map).
- The new counter (these used in HoI 4) can display NATO Symbols. That is not the point here.
The point is to make the counter look like the one from HoI 3.
CounterDiscussion.jpg
 
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Gr1pen

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But Podcat did actually. Okay not in a "sticky" and the actual answer is hidden in a thread over a year old.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...nters-discussion.814718/page-19#post-18377764

- They defnitly won't include a option to just turn them off. Maybe as an DLC later on, if there is interrest (including a 2D map).
- The new counter (these used in HoI 4) can display NATO Symbols. That is not the point here.
The point is to make the counter look like the one from HoI 3.
View attachment 147157

Thanks a lot for the link G-sus, this clears it up for me personally :)
Hope they do include the option to just turn off the 3D model next to the counter after all, I personally don't like them.
Again, thanks!
 
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physics1915

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But really, we should go all-out: Allies use NATO counters, Axis uses German symbols, Comintern uses Soviet symbols and neutrals use Paradox's pictographic counters :p

As I recall, the Germans changed their system of symbols in 1943...maybe that can be covered in the national focus tree. ;)

But seriously, the new map system is objectively better than the old system, you couldn't see anything more than the unit on top of the stack in HOI III, you had to mouse over the stack and look at the tool tip to get useful information about the units in a province, now you can see it at a glance. I think the problem isn't a lack of counters so much as that the sprites just aren't that good; they professional, well polished, and nice looking models, they just don't convey a lot of information at a glance and look similar for very different unit compositions. I'd prefer it if the sprites were small formations, if you had a unit that was half armour, a quarter infantry, and a quarter marines, you'd see half the sprite as an armoured formation, a quarter as an infantry formation, and a quarter as a marine formation, conveying graphically the unit composition at a glance. Of course, this would be several orders of magnitude more art work, which is probably why they didn't take that approach, but, still, would make good DLC.
 

Zaku

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"Serious Wargame" Thats a good one.:D
How can a video game be serious? We play them for fun, even the more realistic types.
Some of you guys are so snobish, it's unbeliveable.
 
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roguepanzer

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I may be new to the forums but have owned and enjoyed HOI3 for a long time 3000 hours and counting, I have to say that this is probably the main reason I will be holding off purchasing the game for a while. I have been using counters since like the 70s with my Avalon Hill games, I realize many of you may have no idea what those are. I prefer counters over the sprites I just do, and I hate losing them it really sucks.

I will be waiting paitently for the DLC that brings the counters back, I know you guys will do it eventually.

I dont want to see a gaggle of model soldiers doin pushups, smoking cigs, and marching in place cluttering up the map TBH.
 
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fabius

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My bias- I've always used NATO counters over sprites. That said, I think the current system as a whole looks good. The 3D models shooting along the front with the counters telling us how many divisions are there. Still may use the Nato option on those.


However, for some of us I think there is a classy aesthetics appeal of Nato counters that is more than just their utility.
I would compare this to the use of Roman Numerals in a Rome game. Heck most people can't recognise Roman numerals, but there are just aesthetically right for that setting. Or using Red for Soviet and blue for friendly force. Or heck imagine WW2 game that used pink instead of field grey for Germans. Or green instead of red for Romans (evidence of predominantly red Roman uniform is week).

There's an element of Nato counters just fit a significant sub-culture's aesthetic expectation.
 
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zivf22

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Can some from the anti Counter guys please explain to me how you are giong to menage the eastern front? 3d Units are not stackable like Counters so you cant see on the map whether you have 1,2,3,4 or 5+ divisions in a province without selecting the enitre stack in a province every time (and you cant even select enemy stack). A 3d soldier also doesnt tell me if its a marine, mounateer paratrooper or an ordinary infantry Division. How will you see weak Points in enemy lines without clicking anything (for rxample a vulnrable province with just 2 Division where every there are 4 along the border)? How will you quickly see if most of your stack in a province are moving(stationary HoI 3 Counters stack differently than moving ones)? In the end it will just be an incomprehensable forest of 3d soldiers screwing around.
Please explain how you intend to manage anything other than just selecting all Division and right clicking moscow?
 
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