Why does "everyone" insists on the NATO Counters that much ?

[Gwayne]

I am so tempted to ask if the counters are 32 bits or 64 bits ;-)

But for me its the same as many here I guess, I get quicker more information with counters then little men running over my screen. Also I always loved to play wargames with counters. It gives me the feeling of being a general

 

[KiwiNoob]

I think for HOI most people do. I cant think of a single AAR, screenshot, video or anything else where the person wasn't playing with NATO-counters. I can appreciate that HOI4 is a mix of 3d models and pds-counters but still just doesn't look as clean or informative as plain counters.

For starters - the pds-counters need to be much bigger. All my decisions will be based off what's on them so I want that to be the focus, not the giant lonely man standing next to it. In videos and screenshots so far I can clearly see the lonely man but have to squint to see the pds-counter and what's on it.

Secondly - they need more troops. The one guy occasionally doing a push-up or shooting his gun is kind of lame.

Thirdly (and less importantly) - they might want to increase the distance at which the counters remain separate. The information looks like it gets too generalised too quickly when zooming out. In HOI3 we could be looking at most of Europe and see at a glance how many divisions we had and (importantly) on what provinces. From what I've seen so far in HOI4 we'll be able to see how many divisions we have but lose a lot of the detail on 'where' they are.


What would be perfect (in my book) is to make the counters more NATO like, bigger and make them more central to the provinces. Then have more (but smaller) soldiers and tanks and actually have them fighting a little war (even if some of it is behind the counters). Then give us a hotkey or UI button that we can push to switch the counters off.

We can plan everything with the counters, put those plans into action then switch the counters off for a while, zoom in and watch the fun

This way people would get to appreciate the artwork too. Currently what's likely to happen is that lots of people will mod the NATO-counters in, the lonely man out and the artwork will remain hidden for all time.

 

[FerdinandVeblen]

About this NATO counters are easy. Easy for who? Someone who knows what they mean? A rectangle with a cross in it can be anything, if you don't know, that this reffers to Infantry. A Helmet or Truck are for the unknowing better to understand.
Can you learn the system? Of course, but that means learning. So to say something is easy, if you understood the system, is a litte bit hypocritical. (At least from my point of view. It may be different for people, who have a better understanding of this.)

Compared to all the other stuff you have to learn to play HoI, I think the NATO symbols (the basic ones anyway, the obscure division types I never use I don't know so well) are pretty easy to learn. Certainly it's not nearly as hard as setting up all the OOBs in HoI3, which I never really got. Plus it makes it look like a hex-and-counter wargame on paper, which is cool . Personally I really like how EUIV's map has a wooden border and Victoria II's map is on graph paper if you zoom out enough: it's a whole little world, all on it's gameboard. I like that style, some may disagree.

 

[FerdinandVeblen]

But really, we should go all-out: Allies use NATO counters, Axis uses German symbols, Comintern uses Soviet symbols and neutrals use Paradox's pictographic counters

 

[KiwiNoob]

Sad to the neutrals....

 

[Oakfan]

I am so tempted to ask if the counters are 32 bits or 64 bits ;-)

best post on this entire thread hands down.

 

[ultracougar]

I think there is a little misconception about the counter statement from Paradox. So I made a picture about what I mean. (So much skill. Wow. )
View attachment 146524
Left side: Counter + Sprite in lower zoom level.
Right upper side: Sprites disappear if you zoom out. Also this are the NATO Symbols Podcat confirmed. And only the symbols, as the counter itself stays the same.
Right lower side: The NATO-Counters from HoI 3 I believe most people refer to, if they whish for NATO counters, in this type of discussions.

About this NATO counters are easy. Easy for who? Someone who knows what they mean? A rectangle with a cross in it can be anything, if you don't know, that this reffers to Infantry. A Helmet or Truck are for the unknowing better to understand.
Can you learn the system? Of course, but that means learning. So to say something is easy, if you understood the system, is a litte bit hypocritical. (At least from my point of view. It may be different for people, who have a better understanding of this.)

I would like to guess that anyone who cares to dive into a game series like Hearts of Iron can handle the task of memorizing the 5-6 major NATO symbols that are commonly used.

And probably 75% of people who buy HOI4 will probably be paradox fans.

I agree we should have both options. If someone wants the simpler symbols, I think that is cool, I'll probably use them at first and then switch them up just for a change of pace, but the argument that NATO symbols are confusing is kind of bunk given the kind of person who probably plays these games. It's not too hard to memorize a few symbols. And as the player above mentioned, the symbols are fairly simply to recognize. The entire purpose of NATO symbols is for them to be easily recognizable and usable in a military situation, lol.

 

[KiwiNoob]

And probably 75% of people who buy HOI4 will probably be paradox fans

Insert the word 'hard-core' and I think that's what PDS is trying to change

no nato-counter option is not the way to do it though.

 

[TartanClad]

They are easy to read and convey more information at a glance to people flicking over a screen.
Also they don't look like children's toy soldiers

I can understand the first sentiment, but the question was why do many people object to the sprites in the first place? We already know that NATO counters will be an option. Call me childish, but I happen to like my toy soldiers.

 

[Hiiri]

We already know that NATO counters will be an option.

No, they will not. Ugh, so much misinformation going around.

 

[Soranya]

No, they will not. Ugh, so much misinformation going around.

Pretty sure Devs said that they will be an option -aside 3D Models and Paradox Counters.

 

[Hiiri]

Pretty sure Devs said that they will be an option -aside 3D Models and Paradox Counters.

No, you are wrong. Pure and simple. And instead of bashing disagree button on my post, how about you guys find a source to back up your claim to show that I'm the one who's wrong. It's been addressed a thousand times already.

I can't wait for the outrage once the game is released and people realize they don't have their precious HoI3-style counters.

 

[Soranya]

No, you are wrong. Pure and simple. And instead of bashing disagree button on my post, how about you guys find a source to back up your claim to show that I'm the one who's wrong. It's been addressed a thousand times already.

I can't wait for the outrage once the game is released and people realize they don't have their precious HoI3-style counters.

So are we talking Counter with NATO Symbols in general or HOI3 Counter with NATO Symbols?
B.c. both are NATO counters in my mind, and there will be NATO counters in HOI4 - not HOI3-Style NATO counters (or any form of HOI3 Style counter for that matter) as far as i know.

EDIT:
I Totally want an option to Agree/Disagree with certain pats of a post at the same time

EDIT2:
Respectfully Disagree O.C. !)

 

[Hiiri]

So are we talking Counter with NATO Symbols in general or HOI3 Counter with NATO Symbols?
B.c. both are NATO counters in my mind, and there will be NATO counters in HOI4 - not HOI3-Style NATO counters (or any form of HOI3 Style counter for that matter) as far as i know.

EDIT:
I Totally want an option to Agree/Disagree with certain pats of a post at the same time

EDIT2:
Respectfully Disagree O.C. !)

These are what we have.

These are what a lot of people want instead.

These are causing unnecessary confusion.

 

[KiwiNoob]

No, they will not. Ugh, so much misinformation going around.

Couldn't agree more. It's exactly the same on the 64bit thread. People refuse to consider other sides of an argument even when presented with an abundance of evidence.

BTW Climate change is a lie

 

[Kovax]

In essence, we have been told (and shown) that Paradox will give us the option of either using graphic icons or NATO symbols on the little status box next to the toy soldier. That means, either it can show a little helmet or an "X" representing infantry, a little tank or an elongated "O", etc., in the upper left corner of the Paradox-style counter. The little animated guy will still be the main indication of what's happening, and the NATO symbol or little pictorial image may not be visible at all zoom levels. At least it should allow one to more easily distinguish between standard infantry, marines, mountain troops, and other specialist units, even if it's not "at a glance" due to all the clutter caused by the larger figures hogging up the screen and the change in emphasis between different zoom levels.

It's half a loaf at best, at this point, but better than being stuck with BOTH the toy soldier AND the helmet icon.

 

[KiwiNoob]

EDIT2:
Respectfully Disagree O.C. !)

Why does everyone have to 'respectfully' do everything these days? Why don't we get buttons for:

• respectfully disagree
• passionately disagree
• belligerently disagree

Then people will be able to gauge just how much we disagree. For some posts I'd also like to be able to push the last one several times.

I also feel that the belligerent option plays in quite well with this particular forum.

 

[blue_yonder]

Why does everyone have to 'respectfully' do everything these days?

I obsequiously agree with your opinion, and find it incandescently helpful.

 

[Kovax]

BTW Climate change is a lie

Climate change is a possibly extreme exaggeration, but possibly spot on, with ample evidence both for and against a long-term shift due to the actions of man. As with so many other things, unrelated political and economic agendas skew the information or the conclusions drawn from that information (through control of the research funding - you come up with the "politically correct" conclusion or else lose your funding). It's as much of a two-sided argument as the counter issue here, deserving of more study at the very least, but with no clear consensus on either side as to man's impact on it, despite repeated claims that "everyone" agrees, or that "everyone" is against it. Also, as with so many other things, we can either pursue radical solutions that have serious side effects (which a few rather vocal parties actually seem to WANT), we can hide our heads in the sand and ignore the issue (which other highly vocal parties actually seem to want), or we can take modest and affordable steps to reduce the possible human contribution well short of breaking the economy (instead of driving manufacturing away to countries where there are NO restrictions, leading to harsh economic consequences domestically but NO real overall progress toward the actual problem). Sensible solutions by sensible leaders are needed, rather than extreme answers by politicians on both sides with other motives.

As is rare in such heavily divided situations, Paradox has at least struck some sort of "middle ground" in this "Counter Insurgency", which may be far less than what many want, but should at least "mostly function" for most players. I'm not overly happy with their half-way solution, but I can live with it.

On Kiwinoob's question about "respectfully disagree", I'd like to see a politically incorrect addition to the list: "Respectfully think you're full of .....". That should get some attention, as Donald Trump has obviously learned.

 

[KiwiNoob]

Climate change is a possibly extreme exaggeration, but possibly spot on, with ample evidence both for and against a long-term shift due to the actions of man. As with so many other things, unrelated political and economic agendas skew the information or the conclusions drawn from that information (through control of the research funding - you come up with the "politically correct" conclusion or else lose your funding). It's as much of a two-sided argument as the counter issue here, deserving of more study at the very least, but with no clear consensus on either side as to man's impact on it, despite repeated claims that "everyone" agrees, or that "everyone" is against it. Also, as with so many other things, we can either pursue radical solutions that have serious side effects (which a few rather vocal parties actually seem to WANT), we can hide our heads in the sand and ignore the issue (which other highly vocal parties actually seem to want), or we can take modest and affordable steps to reduce the possible human contribution well short of breaking the economy (instead of driving manufacturing away to countries where there are NO restrictions, leading to harsh economic consequences domestically but NO real overall progress toward the actual problem). Sensible solutions by sensible leaders are needed, rather than extreme answers by politicians on both sides with other motives.

As is rare in such heavily divided situations, Paradox has at least struck some sort of "middle ground" in this "Counter Insurgency", which may be far less than what many want, but should at least "mostly function" for most players. I'm not overly happy with their half-way solution, but I can live with it.

Are you sure? I thought PDS they opted for the head in the sand approach for the counters...

And if 'sensible decisions by sensible leaders' is whats required. WE'RE ALL DOOMED.

Hurry up with HOI4 PDS - we don't have much time left.