Why does "everyone" insists on the NATO Counters that much ?

[Salatmander]

Thats a point i absolutely do not get...
Everywhere i see people crying cause you are not forced to use those counters.
So why do you want them that much ?

They are so uninformative, and do absolutely not fit in the graphic style of HOI 4 (it looks kind of forced in/weird on the screenshots with them).
Now you get lots of symbols you can even customize your devisions with. Thats absolutely fantastic in my eyes.

The same with those sprites.
I have to admit there, that i think its allways a horrible development decission to "force" the player to see things he actually does not need there. And to be honest it kind of appears to me like a despite reaction to actually give no option to disable them (maybe cause people worked hard on them and want to show them now, i don t know).
ANYWAY, we got some really nice sprites now and you finally do not have to look only on some counters anymore, but actually "see the army you got" and with those animations it finally looks like something is going on on the map.
You don t just push numbers and pictures over a board and thats something i really missed in part 3 (I know there where also sprites in HOI 3, but they where actually terrifying ^^ (sorry there)).
So the only reason I see against those sprites is if there is to MUCH going on and a lot divisions fight against each other i could imagine that the sprites could annoy a bit and make it tougher to still have an overview over everything thats going on. But cause they disappear after you zoomed out a bit i don t think this is going to be a big problem and i am happy to see the units on the field now.

So thats my opinion on this.

Now give me a good reason... why do all of you seem to want those Nato Counters that much ? And why isn´t it enough that Paradox created an option extra for you to switch to those counters ? Why does everyone MUST play only with those Nato symbols in your opinion ?

(I am actually really happy Paradox got finally rid of those.)


EDITED:

(Maybe got a bit to harsh in the end of the post there but i won t change it again now. Didn t wanted to put someone words in his mouth, that was just the way lot of the complaints about this topic sounded to me in the end.)

 

[Lither]

They are easy to read and convey more information at a glance to people flicking over a screen.
Also they don't look like children's toy soldiers

 

[Lilje]

Why does everyone MUST play only with those Nato symbols in your opinion ?

I don't think anybody ever claimed that they want to force everybody to play with them, just to have the option themselves. I don't get the point of this thread tbh.

 

[jamesd]

Its already been confirmed that players will have the option to use NATO symbols on the HOI4 counters, so that's not really an issue any more, and nowhere have I seen anyone advocating that all players should be forced to play with the NATO symbols. What I would like is the option to turn the little models off at all zoom levels, because for me they are a detraction from the game, but again I don't want to force all players to play with them turned off.

 

[Raptor83]

I can live with either option, but I prefer NATO counters.

 

[Salatmander]

I don't think anybody ever claimed that they want to force everybody to play with them, just to have the option themselves. I don't get the point of this thread tbh.

I often read posts about how "necessary" those counters are for people and how "stupid" those sprites are and so on.
The fact that people are still complaining about this even after Paradox anounced they will implement an option to switch to Nato counters sounded for me like thats not enough for them.

I made this thread first because i wanted to write my opinion on this. Because i rarely see people say they like the new symbols and opportunity to "customice" the symbols your divison have.
And I wanted to state out that there actually are some.

The other thing is, that I was also curious about this. Because i allways hear people saying how much the Nato symbols are necessary for them, but i actually seem to never get a reason why.
In my opinion they are uninformative and actually do also not look good on the map. So I wanted to know why people are so obsessed with them.
(and i don t think this community only consists of military freaks ^^`)

 

[CyberianK]

What I still don't get is why peoples call the 3d models of soldiers sprites.
Its 3d models not sprites, right or am I wrong?

Sprites is so 1994 and to me will always be stuff like this:

 

[jamesd]

I often read posts about how "necessary" those counters are for people and how "stupid" those sprites are and so on.
The fact that people are still complaining about this even after Paradox anounced they will implement an option to switch to Nato counters sounded for me like thats not enough for them.

I made this thread first because i wanted to write my opinion on this. Because i rarely see people say they like the new symbols and opportunity to "customice" the symbols your divison have.
And I wanted to state out that there actually are some.

The other thing is, that I was also curious about this. Because i allways hear people saying how much the Nato symbols are necessary for them, but i actually seem to never get a reason why.
In my opinion they are uninformative and actually do also not look good on the map. So I wanted to know why people are so obsessed with them.
(and i don t think this community only consists of military freaks ^^`)

I have played wargames for about 35 years now and almost all of them used NATO type symbols. I want to use them primarily because they are familiar. The HOI3 counters also provided information on approximate combat strength of a unit, which direction it was moving and whether it was currently subject to attack delay, lack of supply or had a component upgrading. It provided a tonne of information that wasn't provided by the HOI3 models. They were also smaller than the models, meaning it was often easier to see what was going on behind the counters. While I appreciate the effort and artwork that goes into making the models, they do not add anything to the game for me, and from what I've seen of models jumping up and down and doing push ups etc while training, I'm going to find it rather annoying.

 

[Zaku]

Oh boy, an other topic about this.
Here we go again...

 

[angelosnau]

They make the game more realistic-military sim in my opinion.That's how real generals identify units on real operations. I don't like having a mess of multiple units on top of each other, all at one spot . Counters are so easy to implement and optional,so paradox should definetely include them.I played HOI 3 using counters.

 

[Lilje]

I often read posts about how "necessary" those counters are for people and how "stupid" those sprites are and so on.
The fact that people are still complaining about this even after Paradox anounced they will implement an option to switch to Nato counters sounded for me like thats not enough for them.

I made this thread first because i wanted to write my opinion on this. Because i rarely see people say they like the new symbols and opportunity to "customice" the symbols your divison have.
And I wanted to state out that there actually are some.

The other thing is, that I was also curious about this. Because i allways hear people saying how much the Nato symbols are necessary for them, but i actually seem to never get a reason why.
In my opinion they are uninformative and actually do also not look good on the map. So I wanted to know why people are so obsessed with them.
(and i don t think this community only consists of military freaks ^^`)

Again, the point of my reply was to inform you that nobody wants to force anybody. An option to either play with NATO-counters or with the new "stylized" ones is fine.

Why NATO? - This is the system that more or less every army use and have used for a long time. The NATO system is based on old US markings and were broadly used before and during WW2, not by all nations though - Germany for example had their own system back then, fairly similar to this. If you have worked with maps in the army you are very familiar with these symbols, and they are used for a reason: they are very simple, contain all info necessary, and you can quickly assess the situation from these counters. For me, this is very immersive, makes me feel like I'm in the HQ working with a real war map. The generals were not putting tiny toy soldiers on the map, they were drawing these counters. If paradox would implement some more local ones in the future, like the ones used specifically by the major powers - I would be even more happy.

The reason for the continued discussion is because many users are not satisfied with just the option of exchanging the symbols inside the boxes - they want more or less the same system as in the previous installments with stackable counters. Also the option that has always been there - to turn of the sprites completely.

 

[rafan]

Why they do it.

Iis simple what do you think human would tell about toilet and toilet paper 10000 B.C. ? Most would be happy, but there would still be some that would whine that bushes and palm leafs were beter.

Now its the same, there are some people that simply got they stance on how it should be, hiden in the safe trown in the hole and filled with concrete.

 

[Axe99]

I'm not sure we need another counters thread (particularly one talking about not playing with NATO counters, when the base game will default to not playing with NATO counters ), but from what I've seen:

- "Everyone" doesn't say they want them - on the forum, it's a pretty even split, but just like the supply issue (which also seemed to be fairly evenly split) the people who didn't get what they want in the game were more prolific posters, because they were trying to encourage the devs to change their position. If the position is already one that someone's happy with, they're less likely to agitate for it.

- There are pros and cons of both systems. There are perfectly sensible, rational reasons for liking both. In that context, it'd be kinda crazy not to expect a bit of a division of opinion. It's not exactly "do you like people to stick pins in your arm or not?" .

 

[GsusNSV]

I often read posts about how "necessary" those counters are for people and how "stupid" those sprites are and so on.
The fact that people are still complaining about this even after Paradox anounced they will implement an option to switch to Nato counters sounded for me like thats not enough for them.[...]

I think there is a little misconception about the counter statement from Paradox. So I made a picture about what I mean. (So much skill. Wow. )

Left side: Counter + Sprite in lower zoom level.
Right upper side: Sprites disappear if you zoom out. Also this are the NATO Symbols Podcat confirmed. And only the symbols, as the counter itself stays the same.
Right lower side: The NATO-Counters from HoI 3 I believe most people refer to, if they whish for NATO counters, in this type of discussions.

About this NATO counters are easy. Easy for who? Someone who knows what they mean? A rectangle with a cross in it can be anything, if you don't know, that this reffers to Infantry. A Helmet or Truck are for the unknowing better to understand.
Can you learn the system? Of course, but that means learning. So to say something is easy, if you understood the system, is a litte bit hypocritical. (At least from my point of view. It may be different for people, who have a better understanding of this.)

 

[Swinds]

What I still don't get is why peoples call the 3d models of soldiers sprites.
Its 3d models not sprites, right or am I wrong?

Sprites is so 1994 and to me will always be stuff like this:

Memories of 1994

 

[Aodhan_]

I don't think everyone want's counters I always use the models, but I don't see why they can't have both as they did in the previous version.

 

[Mabs]

some people like to use the counters, some people like to use the 3d models as they are more 3d as opposed to the 'classic board game' look

and a minority like to denigrate other peoples choices cos they believe they are "better" players, or are more serious with a more valid opinion, if they use certain options as its more "grown up" (the fact that youre mocking other people in a childish manner is apparently lost on them).
........

.........

Also they don't look like children's toy soldiers

said someone playing a video game in 2015.

 

[PhantomXtrike]

I used NATO counters in HOI3 but I lean toward 3D models in HOI4 for now, as it seems to be a much improvement compared with HOI3 3D models. Seriously.

 

[Sloeberjong]

They are easy to read and convey more information at a glance to people flicking over a screen.
Also they don't look like children's toy soldiers

The irony being that you ARE in fact playing with toy soldiers wether you like it or not. HOI is a game, so they're digital toys, but still, toys. It is not a professional simulation nor does It try to be. It is entertainment, not more, no less.

I will probably use the NATO counters, but I don't think I'll mind the 3d model jumping etc. They dissapear at a certain zoomlevel so I think this whole discussion is pointless. It will be a minor nuissence at worst I expect.

Anyway, I like what paradox is doing with the game, so all that remains for me is to grab some popcorn and enjoy the coming ****storm in this thread and wait for the game to come out.

 

[Lilje]

I think there is a little misconception about the counter statement from Paradox. So I made a picture about what I mean. (So much skill. Wow. )
View attachment 146524
Left side: Counter + Sprite in lower zoom level.
Right upper side: Sprites disappear if you zoom out. Also this are the NATO Symbols Podcat confirmed. And only the symbols, as the counter itself stays the same.
Right lower side: The NATO-Counters from HoI 3 I believe most people refer to, if they whish for NATO counters, in this type of discussions.

About this NATO counters are easy. Easy for who? Someone who knows what they mean? A rectangle with a cross in it can be anything, if you don't know, that this reffers to Infantry. A Helmet or Truck are for the unknowing better to understand.
Can you learn the system? Of course, but that means learning. So to say something is easy, if you understood the system, is a litte bit hypocritical. (At least from my point of view. It may be different for people, who have a better understanding of this.)

The NATO counters are good in that they are clear and simple once you learn them. In my opinion they are also (very) easy to learn (debatable), however for new users I can understand that they may be confusing the first time you see them.

Most of them actually make sense and are derived from the real world, for example;
Infantry is two crossed rifle
Cavalry is a sabre
Armor is the tracks of a tank
Maintenance is a wrench
Engineers are a bridge
Marines are an anchor
etc etc

Once you learn them they are very clear and makes for a better overview, which is also the reason that military maps does not have helmets, trucks, tanks and horses drawn on them.

Why they do it.

Iis simple what do you think human would tell about toilet and toilet paper 10000 B.C. ? Most would be happy, but there would still be some that would whine that bushes and palm leafs were beter.

Now its the same, there are some people that simply got they stance on how it should be, hiden in the safe trown in the hole and filled with concrete.

I'm all for choices, if you want to play with these stylized symbols and sprites I would never ever complain about that. Therefore I also expect you to respect others opinion if they prefer NATO symbols and not make a childish comparison to whichever toilet paper you use.

I don't think everyone want's counters I always use the models, but I don't see why they can't have both as they did in the previous version.

Exactly, what many fail to see is that we merely want the option, not force anybody to use counters. We are not advocating a removal of the sprites or helmets and sad horses.