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Jan 4, 2020
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Also, you make it seen like France would be "abandoning an ally to the Wolves", but Belgium left the French alliance in 1936, France has absolutely no obligation to them post 1936.
What ally? Belgium had left the alliance already.
Also, you make it seen like France would be "abandoning an ally to the Wolves", but Belgium left the French alliance in 1936, France has absolutely no obligation to them post 1936.

All of this happened after the 1936 scenario starts. Belgium was still allied with France until the Remilitarization of the Rhineland. In-game, this even can play out differently.

Without a unique Focus tree for Belgium, it should be represented by France starting with guarantees on Belgium, and them getting cancelled if the Rhineland is remilitarized AND France does not fight.

The malus should only apply if France is guaranteeing Belgium (still or again)
 
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GrounchoVilla

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Then go watch the video the World War Two channle has on youtube on the extension of the Maginot Line. Compared to the what they took time to prepare, they were horribly designed and by comparison inadequate. For example their is a lack of protection between the fighting areas and the sleeping areas. So instead of compartmentalized damage, now everyone is fucked.

i think I saw that same video a few days ago - I thought the point was that the fort in question was particularly rushed in construction and had particularly bad luck when neighboring divisions were pulled back, leaving it isolated. So I don't think that was supposed to be a typical case, so much as one of the lucky breaks of the Germans.
 

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All of this happened after the 1936 scenario starts. Belgium was still allied with France until the Remilitarization of the Rhineland. In-game, this even can play out differently.

Without a unique Focus tree for Belgium, it should be represented by France starting with guarantees on Belgium, and them getting cancelled if the Rhineland is remilitarized AND France does not fight.

The malus should only apply if France is guaranteeing Belgium (still or again)

I don’t disagree in principle, but even if you started extending the Maginot on day 1, Rhineland is still the first focus historical Germany will do, so by the time it matters, Belgium wouldn’t be a French ally anyway.
And who would burn the CICom extending the Maginot before Rhineland anyway? There’s better ways to spend CIC the first 6 months.
 
Jan 4, 2020
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I don’t disagree in principle, but even if you started extending the Maginot on day 1, Rhineland is still the first focus historical Germany will do, so by the time it matters, Belgium wouldn’t be a French ally anyway.
yes, if they follow the historical course. But this whole thread is about an ahistorical situation (the Maginot line was never extended to the coast).

If they have no alliance or guarantee, Belgium shouldn't get the malus.

Historically, Belgium was allied to France when the game starts (01.01.1936) and this alliance and the breakup should be represented in the game. (especially since France also guarantees the Eastern European nations)
 

DystopianAlphaOmega

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yes, if they follow the historical course. But this whole thread is about an ahistorical situation (the Maginot line was never extended to the coast).

If they have no alliance or guarantee, Belgium shouldn't get the malus.

Historically, Belgium was allied to France when the game starts (01.01.1936) and this alliance and the breakup should be represented in the game. (especially since France also guarantees the Eastern European nations)

The French did expand the Maginot to the Channel though, at least in a much more limited fashion, starting in about 1934 (according to Wikipedia anyways).

And even after the alliance lapses, it’s hard to say Belgium wasn’t guaranteed by France, so much as Belgium would no longer support a French pre-emotive strike (say over Czechoslovakia). As I have said, no way Britain or France would have let Germany invade Belgium without opposition, alliance or not. AFAIK HOI II has this, though it had many, many guarantees (fairly realistic, but more questionable gameplay-wise), HOI III has less, but had the Low Country guarantees. Perhaps HOI IV should consider if it should add them (and perhaps a spirit reducing guarantee cost to compensate).
 

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Sunforged General

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I found that in the game, it was easier to win as France when I actually fought for my allies, i.e. deploying some troops in Belgium (if I play the historical alliance) or in Czecoslovakia and Yugoslavia (if I go with the Little Entente) to ensure they survive and stay in the fight.
Almost every advice I found on the net told me to turtle behind forts, but that means I'm fighting alone against 2 major powers, one of them far superior. Every time I tired that, the line ended up breaking at some point after a few month, and I was defeated. But when I fought agressively, defended my allies, took the fight to the germans, I had a real fighting chance, and usually end up winning the war.
Those neutral countries are not just useless color blobs on the map : They're troops, divisions, industry, planes, airfields, defensible positions, manpower, stuff you want on your side rather than obliterated or controled by the axis. They force Germany to fight on several fronts, overextending their lines. And if they fall, they might take a big chunk of the Brit army with them, further weakening the allies.

Manpower is an issue, but not as strong as I thought. First, because Maginot means a fair portion of the line can be held by a few smaller, weaker colonial brigades, leaving my real combat troops for more important fronts. Belgium and the Netherlands have smaller armies, but back them up with 24 French divisions positionned along a natural defensive position, and they can defend their countries for a long time, time enough for you to bring more troops to the frontlines. And if you really need more manpower before the war, you can always go on the decolonisation path and require troops from your fresh new vassals.

As for the idea of extending Maginot to the sea, that doesn't sound like a hot idea. A good fort needs to buid up on natural defenses. In a plain, "fighting from a fort" just means the enemy will go around your position, isolate you, and kill you at his leasure.
As a reference, the eastern perimeter of Paris is surrounded by an old line of forts dating back from the 19th century (due to our... "rich and long?" common history with Germany), and nearly every one of them was built to take advantage of geographic features : at the tip of a plateau, on a major bridge, or closing the gap between 2 rivers. And on places where natural defensive positions are rare (the plains and old marshes at the north-east of Paris), the fort network is very dense, with 1000-2000m between 2 forts, and smaller redoubts between them. That kind of fortification density would be unattainable on the belgian border. And we're talking about the kind of defense density people thought was necessary BEFORE heavy artillery, mobile warfare and warplanes made them very expensive practice targets...
As i've said before, only the northern part of the Franco-Belgian border needs extensive forts, the southern half has the Ardennes, giving hills and forests as cover for forts, and very few forts are needed, just need ones to cover what few roads there are. But these fortes need to be built better than the cheap ones France did build there in reality.