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Sunforged General

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Why does Belgium get mad at France for extending the Maginot line? It reduces their opinion of France by like 50 points. You'd think they'd want France to extend the line, since it removes the main purpose for Germany to invade Belgium...going around the Maginot Line. If the line is extended to the English Channel, Belgium is no longer a way around the Line.
 
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Why does Belgium get mad at France for extending the Maginot line? It reduces their opinion of France by like 50 points. You'd think they'd want France to extend the line, since it removes the main purpose for Germany to invade Belgium...going around the Maginot Line. If the line is extended to the English Channel, Belgium is no longer a way around the Line.

Um, no, they most definately wouldn't like that, because it sells out Belgium.
The whole idea was for the Maginot-line to protect the immediate border, opening up the bulk of the French army to move into Belgium, where the Belgians would have fortifications along the Meuse and Albert-Canal.

You also have to take into consideration, that the terrain at the border with Germany was much more favourable for a fortress-line than it was near the cost. Not only was there the cover of the Rhine for an extended area, but you also had the Vosges mountains and lots of forests, compared to more or less open terrain at the border with Belgium. This means that going through Belgium still is the easiest way into France.

If the French would extend the line and sit in it in case of war - which is exactly what the Belgians would expect, as otherwise building the extended line would be useless - it would result in the Belgians having to fight the Germans on their own. Anything that hints at France not immediately jumping to Belgium's aid would obviously sour the relationship between Belgium and France, which is why this change in opinion in the game is completely right.

Just look at Belgium's reaction to the Germans entering the Rhineland. France did nothing to counter it, so Belgium revoked the alliance with France and took up a neutral stance, as German troops were right at their border now. This meant that instead of French troops entering Belgium on time, to set up defenses before the Germans could invade, the French had to wait until it actually happened before they could move in. This put them in far worse defensive positions.
 
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Sunforged General

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Um, no, they most definately wouldn't like that, because it sells out Belgium.
The whole idea was for the Maginot-line to protect the immediate border, opening up the bulk of the French army to move into Belgium, where the Belgians would have fortifications along the Meuse and Albert-Canal.

You also have to take into consideration, that the terrain at the border with Germany was much more favourable for a fortress-line than it was near the cost. Not only was there the cover of the Rhine for an extended area, but you also had the Vosges mountains and lots of forests, compared to more or less open terrain at the border with Belgium. This means that going through Belgium still is the easiest way into France.

If the French would extend the line and sit in it in case of war - which is exactly what the Belgians would expect, as otherwise building the extended line would be useless - it would result in the Belgians having to fight the Germans on their own. Anything that hints at France not immediately jumping to Belgium's aid would obviously sour the relationship between Belgium and France, which is why this change in opinion in the game is completely right.

Just look at Belgium's reaction to the Germans entering the Rhineland. France did nothing to counter it, so Belgium revoked the alliance with France and took up a neutral stance, as German troops were right at their border now. This meant that instead of French troops entering Belgium on time, to set up defenses before the Germans could invade, the French had to wait until it actually happened before they could move in. This put them in far worse defensive positions.
Why does Belgium expect France to come save them, if Belgium is the one who left the French Alliance. France post 1936 had no obligation to Belgium, and should have defended its own interests. Also, part of the Franco-Belgian border has the Ardennes forest and hills, making it easily defendable by Maginot forts like the Franco-German border is. Only half of the Belgian border is flat, that area probably just needs extra fortresses.

Either way, extending the Maginot line would have been the correct choice, because France does not have the manpower to take on Germany in an extended war, so it must conserve its manpower by making the Germans attack strong fortifications. This is reflected in game, France's manpower is too low, if you engage the Germans without forts, they'll either push right through you, or if you can hold them, you'll run out of manpower quickly. (Not counting special focus trees like the napoleonic focus tree that gives absurd manpower.)
 
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Why does Belgium get mad at France for extending the Maginot line? It reduces their opinion of France by like 50 points. You'd think they'd want France to extend the line, since it removes the main purpose for Germany to invade Belgium...going around the Maginot Line. If the line is extended to the English Channel, Belgium is no longer a way around the Line.
Even if the line did extend fully, it would be prudent for Germany to occupy Belgium to improve the range of their planes and probe different parts of the defense. Especially if it becomes ten times easier due to the French standing back.
It may still be optimal to extend the line; Belgium getting mad is not really the end of the world, is it?
 
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George Parr

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Why does Belgium expect France to come save them, if Belgium is the one who left the French Alliance. France post 1936 had no obligation to Belgium, and should have defended its own interests. Also, part of the Franco-Belgian border has the Ardennes forest and hills, making it easily defendable by Maginot forts like the Franco-German border is. Only half of the Belgian border is flat, that area probably just needs extra fortresses.

Either way, extending the Maginot line would have been the correct choice, because France does not have the manpower to take on Germany in an extended war, so it must conserve its manpower by making the Germans attack strong fortifications. This is reflected in game, France's manpower is too low, if you engage the Germans without forts, they'll either push right through you, or if you can hold them, you'll run out of manpower quickly. (Not counting special focus trees like the napoleonic focus tree that gives absurd manpower.)

Who says anything about Belgium expecting France to save them?
This is about not being left at the whims of an enemy. By building the Maginot-line France already made it far more likely that any German attack would automatically come through Belgium. Hiding behind a fortress line that does not take your own ally into consideration is the best way to lose an ally. It sends the clear signal that you don't care one bit about what happens to your ally, having only your own safety in mind.

You also seem to have little idea how extremely expensive building the Maginot-line was, how long it takes to plan and build such fortifications, or how much it takes to man it and keep it running. It's not a matter of going "hey, how about we extend the fortresses?" and off you go. It takes ages of putting things into law, funding it, creating the plans for it, and building it.
Not to mention that the more fortresses you build, the more of your military is bound to fixed location, meaning they are unsuitable for offensive actions. Politicians in France were also wary about the strength of the military and had no interest having a large standing army that could fall under the sway of conservative military leaders, which means the more fortresses there are, the less mobile will the army be, as the size of the army won't increase. This, in turn, means that you have no real reserves, while the enemy can just focus his forces into breaking through in one specific area, overwhelming your troops.

And as I mentioned earlier, there are no real natural barriers at the border between Belgium and France. The only decent one runs right through Belgium, which is why the whole French plan was build upon using that river-line in Belgium as further defense. And no, it most definately doesn't need "just some extra fortresses" to cover the border, that's just not how any of that works. Fortresses work when you have little means of bypassing them. That is a given when there is a larger river, mountains, or a thick forest, as all that forces the enemy into a narrow path. The border between Belgium and France is so open that you would have to cluster the whole thing with fortresses in an unrealistic manner. No one would have allocated the funds for that, no one would have accepted plans that would have thrown an ally to the wolves like that. Heck, the Maginot-line wasn't even fully equiped by the time war broke out. That wouldn't have looked any better if it had been extended by hundreds of kilometers.

The actual historic plan was for French troops to move into Belgium, join the Belgians at the Meuse and Albert-Canal, which were fortified with fortresses, and hold the German advance there. If necessary they could fall back to another river-line. Even if the Germans would break those lines, it would be so costly to them that by the time they would have reached the French border, they would have lost their offensive capabilities. it also would have meant not having to see Northern France getting ravaged again, like in WW1.
Your idea, on the other hand, wouldn't accomplish any of that. Instead of combining your strength and fighting together against Germany (France, Britain, Belgium, + others), you would let the Belgians be cast aside easily. The worst thing you could do is let the Germans pick up one smaller army after another, as it doesn't cost a lot to beat those, while you lose the strength you would have had if you joined forces. it also means that if that defensive line breaks, there is absolutely nothing that could work as new defensive line.


All of that is rather irrelevant when discussing Belgium's reaction to such a move though. Yes, it should be decidedly negative, because it is a sign to Belgium that it is on its own.
 
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no one would have accepted plans that would have thrown an ally to the wolves like that.

What ally? Belgium had left the alliance already.

The fortified line might have been less feasible in economic or military terms on or near the Belgian border, but Belgium was not an official ally of France by October of 1936. Belgium officially left the Locarno Treaty, ended its formal alliance with France, and even got a NAP from Germany in 1937.

We all know that NAP wasn't worth the paper it was printed on, but calling Belgium an "ally" of France in 36, 37, or 38 seems a bit of a stretch. And this is, presumably, the time in which the Maginot would be extended in HOI4.
 
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belgium in the beginning of 36 is allied with france, it's only after the militarisation of the rhine occurs that they leave the alliance to pursue neutrality again, but they were still friendly towards france, the relations hit is pretty much just an ackowledgement that they'll treat france like any other neighbouring power
the extention of the maginot line is also a clear signal to belgium and germany: "in the event of an invasion we'll be defending here, everything on the other side might as well be german for what we care"
 
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Sunforged General

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Who says anything about Belgium expecting France to save them?
This is about not being left at the whims of an enemy. By building the Maginot-line France already made it far more likely that any German attack would automatically come through Belgium. Hiding behind a fortress line that does not take your own ally into consideration is the best way to lose an ally. It sends the clear signal that you don't care one bit about what happens to your ally, having only your own safety in mind.

You also seem to have little idea how extremely expensive building the Maginot-line was, how long it takes to plan and build such fortifications, or how much it takes to man it and keep it running. It's not a matter of going "hey, how about we extend the fortresses?" and off you go. It takes ages of putting things into law, funding it, creating the plans for it, and building it.
Not to mention that the more fortresses you build, the more of your military is bound to fixed location, meaning they are unsuitable for offensive actions. Politicians in France were also wary about the strength of the military and had no interest having a large standing army that could fall under the sway of conservative military leaders, which means the more fortresses there are, the less mobile will the army be, as the size of the army won't increase. This, in turn, means that you have no real reserves, while the enemy can just focus his forces into breaking through in one specific area, overwhelming your troops.

And as I mentioned earlier, there are no real natural barriers at the border between Belgium and France. The only decent one runs right through Belgium, which is why the whole French plan was build upon using that river-line in Belgium as further defense. And no, it most definately doesn't need "just some extra fortresses" to cover the border, that's just not how any of that works. Fortresses work when you have little means of bypassing them. That is a given when there is a larger river, mountains, or a thick forest, as all that forces the enemy into a narrow path. The border between Belgium and France is so open that you would have to cluster the whole thing with fortresses in an unrealistic manner. No one would have allocated the funds for that, no one would have accepted plans that would have thrown an ally to the wolves like that. Heck, the Maginot-line wasn't even fully equiped by the time war broke out. That wouldn't have looked any better if it had been extended by hundreds of kilometers.

The actual historic plan was for French troops to move into Belgium, join the Belgians at the Meuse and Albert-Canal, which were fortified with fortresses, and hold the German advance there. If necessary they could fall back to another river-line. Even if the Germans would break those lines, it would be so costly to them that by the time they would have reached the French border, they would have lost their offensive capabilities. it also would have meant not having to see Northern France getting ravaged again, like in WW1.
Your idea, on the other hand, wouldn't accomplish any of that. Instead of combining your strength and fighting together against Germany (France, Britain, Belgium, + others), you would let the Belgians be cast aside easily. The worst thing you could do is let the Germans pick up one smaller army after another, as it doesn't cost a lot to beat those, while you lose the strength you would have had if you joined forces. it also means that if that defensive line breaks, there is absolutely nothing that could work as new defensive line.


All of that is rather irrelevant when discussing Belgium's reaction to such a move though. Yes, it should be decidedly negative, because it is a sign to Belgium that it is on its own.
I keep telling you, half of the Franco-Belgian border is forested hills, easily defensible, and these forested hills extend into the French side. The only flat plain is the northern half of the French Belgian border. Also the Maginot line as built only cost 0.86% of French GDP or 3 billion Francs. Yes that's alot, but it's not an impossible sum to pay again to extend the line.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardennes#/media/File:Location_Ardennes.PNG

Also, you make it seen like France would be "abandoning an ally to the Wolves", but Belgium left the French alliance in 1936, France has absolutely no obligation to them post 1936.
 
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I keep telling you, half of the Franco-Belgian border is forested hills, easily defensible, and these forested hills extend into the French side. The only flat plain is the northern half of the French Belgian border. Also the Maginot line as built only cost 0.86% of French GDP or 3 billion Francs. Yes that's alot, but it's not an impossible sum to pay again to extend the line.
That was the entire point and played a big factor as to why the fortifications weren't extended. The belgian ardennes was considered a natural defensive barrier, and the Belgian fortications and rivers were considered a good defensive layer by both Belgium and France since it served as a roadblock into the flat countryside of flanders. (This turned out to be a horrible mistake of course)

Also, you make it seen like France would be "abandoning an ally to the Wolves", but Belgium left the French alliance in 1936, France has absolutely no obligation to them post 1936.
This is patently false and honestly a very superficial way to analyze the situation. A neutral Belgium plays in the cards of the French that wanted the German's only option to be going through the maginot line. It's not unreasonable for France to think Germany wasn't going to dare to breach Belgium's neutrality (which of course they ended up doing regardless)

France had every interest in fighting and stopping the germans on belgian soil even if you assign a malevolent and spiteful aspect to it = Better to have belgian villages and cities in ruins than french ones.
 
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Sunforged General

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That was the entire point and played a big factor as to why the fortifications weren't extended. The belgian ardennes was considered a natural defensive barrier, and the Belgian fortications and rivers were considered a good defensive layer by both Belgium and France since it served as a roadblock into the flat countryside of flanders. (This turned out to be a horrible mistake of course)


This is patently false and honestly a very superficial way to analyze the situation. A neutral Belgium plays in the cards of the French that wanted the German's only option to be going through the maginot line. It's not unreasonable for France to think Germany wasn't going to dare to breach Belgium's neutrality (which of course they ended up doing regardless)

France had every interest in fighting and stopping the germans on belgian soil even if you assign a malevolent and spiteful aspect to it = Better to have belgian villages and cities in ruins than french ones.
I think you are looking at it in a superficial manner. A Neutral Belgium was a horrible situation for France. It meant when the Germans invade (they did it in 1914, why would anyone believe they wouldn't do it again) the French army wouldn't be dug in, but would have to hastily move into Belgium after Belgium is invaded by Germany. Germany was never going to attack the maginot line head on, no matter what, Belgium was going to be invaded whether they be neutral or allied with France. But since Belgium left the French alliance, and France cant guarantee they'll be able to get into Belgium fast enough to fortify, their best bet was to fortify their own border.

Extending the maginot line and leaving Belgium to their own devices, does not mean French villages and cities would be destroyed, it means the combat would be isolated to the border, thanks to the Fortifications.

I still dont understand how Belgium even pressured the French to not extend the line. It would make sense if France listened if they were still allies, but once Belgium left the French alliance, France had every right to look out for her self and extend the line.

For all intents and purposes, Belgium is responsible for the French loss. Had They stayed allied to France, come 1940 when the Germans invade, the French army would be positioned throughout Belgium, fortified and prepared. Hell, in that situation, instead of extending the maginot line, France might even have paid to build the fortifications in Belgium itself.
 
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Why does Belgium expect France to come save them, if Belgium is the one who left the French Alliance. France post 1936 had no obligation to Belgium, and should have defended its own interests. Also, part of the Franco-Belgian border has the Ardennes forest and hills, making it easily defendable by Maginot forts like the Franco-German border is. Only half of the Belgian border is flat, that area probably just needs extra fortresses.

This should not even be a question for two reasons.

1) That is the traditional invasion highway.
2) Would you rather as a Frenchman fight Germans on your own territory or fight it on someone elses territory.

After all for #2 if you don't fight the Germans in France you are now fighting on your own territory and a much much longer frontline that is harder to defend as opposed to going into Belgium and having a shorter frontline to defend. In sort, defending and fighting in Belgium is also fighting for your own interests as a Frenchman and to say otherwise is shortsighted and ignorant of other factors.
 

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I keep telling you, half of the Franco-Belgian border is forested hills, easily defensible, and these forested hills extend into the French side. The only flat plain is the northern half of the French Belgian border. Also the Maginot line as built only cost 0.86% of French GDP or 3 billion Francs. Yes that's alot, but it's not an impossible sum to pay again to extend the line.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardennes#/media/File:Location_Ardennes.PNG

Also, you make it seen like France would be "abandoning an ally to the Wolves", but Belgium left the French alliance in 1936, France has absolutely no obligation to them post 1936.

It's not so much as paying it, but the amount of time it would take to actually make it. The real maginot line took from like 1929 to 1938 to be finished at least according to the bear minimum of wikipedia. I have a hard time believing that they were still working on it till 1938, but even if it was 35 or 36 any work down on it would basically have the existing defenses be insignigigant or greatly diminished in value I think because this is a how line of forts that is supposed to work togethere. And those forts cannot work togethere is the line is not finished.

Luckily for us in HOI4 we have pop up forts that give us lvl 3 forts that we need at minimum.
 

Volodio

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Also, you make it seen like France would be "abandoning an ally to the Wolves", but Belgium left the French alliance in 1936, France has absolutely no obligation to them post 1936.

Belgium left the alliance because they believed that war was coming but the French didn't do anything about it. So they changed strategy, thinking that the French lack of reaction might cause the defeat of the alliance, or at least a very costly war. If France extends the Maginot line, it means they acknowledge that war is coming but rather than restoring the alliance with Belgium, they prepare to fortify the border and to sit by if Belgium gets invaded. The opinion malus is justified.
 
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Sunforged General

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This should not even be a question for two reasons.

1) That is the traditional invasion highway.
2) Would you rather as a Frenchman fight Germans on your own territory or fight it on someone elses territory.

After all for #2 if you don't fight the Germans in France you are now fighting on your own territory and a much much longer frontline that is harder to defend as opposed to going into Belgium and having a shorter frontline to defend. In sort, defending and fighting in Belgium is also fighting for your own interests as a Frenchman and to say otherwise is shortsighted and ignorant of other factors.
I'd rather fight the Germans from inside a Maginot fort than in some flat plain in Belgium.
 

Alpha2518

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I'd rather fight the Germans from inside a Maginot fort than in some flat plain in Belgium.

Then go watch the video the World War Two channle has on youtube on the extension of the Maginot Line. Compared to the what they took time to prepare, they were horribly designed and by comparison inadequate. For example their is a lack of protection between the fighting areas and the sleeping areas. So instead of compartmentalized damage, now everyone is fucked.
 

demanvanwezel

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also the maginot line did what it had to do from the beginning: make a force multiplier so it could be manned by french conscripts making it so that the germans would be funneled into belgium where the regular and elite french divisions could defeat them
by costructing it along the entire border you're taking away predictability, the germans could then feignt attack near dunkerque while actually breaking through in alsace when your response troops are still rushing north
the maginot line was never build to stop the germans, just to slow them down enough so their mobile response units could stop them (which they attempted IRL, one french unit even ran out of fuel on it's way from the netherlands to wallonia)

also the french-german border is marked by the vosges and is relatively short, the maginot line as it was was expensive and that price was pushed down by getting conscripts to build it instead of training them for the army, the french belgian border is about twice as large and devoid of natural barriers (except for as noted before the ardennes forest but that was thought to be impassible by tanks and as such a smaller garison was thought to be enough by french high command)
 

DystopianAlphaOmega

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Just because Belgium left the alliance with France, didn’t mean it wasn’t still effectively guaranteed by France and, more importantly, Britain (same “scrap of paper“ and strategic considerations that were crucial to getting the British into WWI). There is no way France and Britain would have allowed Germany to invade Belgium and do nothing. Its position is a dagger pointed at the hearts of both their countries and has strong cultural and historic ties to both (from WWI, creation of Belgium, language with France, same ruling dynasty as Britain, etc.).

Beyond this, interwar French planners were very aware they could not win a 1v1 war with Germany in manpower or production, and were willing to bend over backwards to ensure they had British support, even if it meant abandoning continental allies like the Little Entente.

Incidentally, French actually did extend the Maginot line to the coast, but with much more rudimentary fortifications. That said, taking the focus in-game though is basically showing you are willing to abandon Belgium to the wolves. However justified this may be based on their actions/strategic considerations, it’s easy to see how the Belgians would not be very impressed by this.
 
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Sunforged General

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Then go watch the video the World War Two channle has on youtube on the extension of the Maginot Line. Compared to the what they took time to prepare, they were horribly designed and by comparison inadequate. For example their is a lack of protection between the fighting areas and the sleeping areas. So instead of compartmentalized damage, now everyone is fucked.
Well I suppose I should be more specific, i'd rather fight the Germans from inside fortifications of the same quality as existed on the French border with Germany, not the cheapy ones they hastily built on the border with Belgium. To do that would probably require planning to do so at latest in 1934.
 

kardwill

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This is reflected in game, France's manpower is too low, if you engage the Germans without forts, they'll either push right through you, or if you can hold them, you'll run out of manpower quickly. (Not counting special focus trees like the napoleonic focus tree that gives absurd manpower.)

I found that in the game, it was easier to win as France when I actually fought for my allies, i.e. deploying some troops in Belgium (if I play the historical alliance) or in Czecoslovakia and Yugoslavia (if I go with the Little Entente) to ensure they survive and stay in the fight.
Almost every advice I found on the net told me to turtle behind forts, but that means I'm fighting alone against 2 major powers, one of them far superior. Every time I tired that, the line ended up breaking at some point after a few month, and I was defeated. But when I fought agressively, defended my allies, took the fight to the germans, I had a real fighting chance, and usually end up winning the war.
Those neutral countries are not just useless color blobs on the map : They're troops, divisions, industry, planes, airfields, defensible positions, manpower, stuff you want on your side rather than obliterated or controled by the axis. They force Germany to fight on several fronts, overextending their lines. And if they fall, they might take a big chunk of the Brit army with them, further weakening the allies.

Manpower is an issue, but not as strong as I thought. First, because Maginot means a fair portion of the line can be held by a few smaller, weaker colonial brigades, leaving my real combat troops for more important fronts. Belgium and the Netherlands have smaller armies, but back them up with 24 French divisions positionned along a natural defensive position, and they can defend their countries for a long time, time enough for you to bring more troops to the frontlines. And if you really need more manpower before the war, you can always go on the decolonisation path and require troops from your fresh new vassals.

As for the idea of extending Maginot to the sea, that doesn't sound like a hot idea. A good fort needs to buid up on natural defenses. In a plain, "fighting from a fort" just means the enemy will go around your position, isolate you, and kill you at his leasure.
As a reference, the eastern perimeter of Paris is surrounded by an old line of forts dating back from the 19th century (due to our... "rich and long?" common history with Germany), and nearly every one of them was built to take advantage of geographic features : at the tip of a plateau, on a major bridge, or closing the gap between 2 rivers. And on places where natural defensive positions are rare (the plains and old marshes at the north-east of Paris), the fort network is very dense, with 1000-2000m between 2 forts, and smaller redoubts between them. That kind of fortification density would be unattainable on the belgian border. And we're talking about the kind of defense density people thought was necessary BEFORE heavy artillery, mobile warfare and warplanes made them very expensive practice targets...