Why does Atenism exist in 400 BC?

[SOSHaruhi101]

I thought Atenism mostly died like thousands of years ago. It feel weird having it pop up in Early Mid Ages

 

[greatolaf3]

This mod doesn't cover BC at all, and Atenism doesn't exist at any start date, it only exists if one of the few people who start as Kemetic (which had, if only barely, survived to this point) are successful enough to spawn heretics. They are both borrowed relatively unchanged from another mod at this point, as there's been little focus on the many pagan religions bar Roman and Hellenic at this point.

 

[loup99]

As @greatolaf3 said, Atenism does not exist on the map in any start, and your title is misleading. It is a heresy for the Kemetic Pagan religion which starts out as pre-reformed, and was integrated from the ACR mod. That being said, we could maybe consider its removal, since it is true that it is rather far-fetched for it to reappear in 476. Replacing it with a more plausible heresy could be an option.

 

[SOSHaruhi101]

Didn't mean to be misleading, more meant to ask why it often ends up appearing in game, as Atenic heresies often pop up everywhere by 500-600

 

[LDonahue]

Didn't mean to be misleading, more meant to ask why it often ends up appearing in game, as Atenic heresies often pop up everywhere by 500-600

I believe it's simply a function of how heresies work in CK2. Atenism was only truly practiced by a handful of people and rulers in the mid to late 2nd millennium B.C.E, but it's the only form of early Egyptian religion that could really be considered a "heresy" of traditional Egyptian polytheism thus the developers listed it as a heresy of Kemetism. The problem then being that heresies simply spring up on the map in CK2 and the random revival among peasants of a short lived, barely practiced, 1,700+ year old religion seems unlikely. I'd imagine the best way to realistically implement Atenism is via an event chain, but that requires dev time that could be used to focus on more prominent aspects of the mod. That all being said, here's a couple of patch-work solutions

1. Delete Atenism from the religions file. If you don't know how to do that, just replace your religions text file in common/religions with the one attached.

2. Pretend that the Atenism in-game is some Garamantian variety Neo-Atenism that has nothing or little to do with Akhenaten's Atenism.

 

[loup99]

Didn't mean to be misleading, more meant to ask why it often ends up appearing in game, as Atenic heresies often pop up everywhere by 500-600

Your title is outright misleading, the rest is fine and was justified as a question. I would just edit away the "400 BC" part of it and it would no longer confuse.

I believe it's simply a function of how heresies work in CK2. Atenism was only truly practiced by a handful of people and rulers in the mid to late 2nd millennium B.C.E, but it's the only form of early Egyptian religion that could really be considered a "heresy" of traditional Egyptian polytheism thus the developers listed it as a heresy of Kemetism. The problem then being that heresies simply spring up on the map in CK2 and the random revival among peasants of a short lived, barely practiced, 1,700+ year old religion seems unlikely.

There is nothing that forces us having Kemetic heresies though. ACR had it because their main criteria is not plausibility, but rather a focus on more ancient religions dead by the start of CK2. We have it integrated because it provides flavour to religions that still exist by 476, but our focus is different. If there is no heresy which is plausible we might as well have none.

I'd imagine the best way to realistically implement Atenism is via an event chain, but that requires dev time that could be used to focus on more prominent aspects of the mod.

How would that work? Even with an event chain it wouldn't be particularly plausible in my opinion.

2. Pretend that the Atenism in-game is some Garamantian variety Neo-Atenism that has nothing or little to do with Akhenaten's Atenism.

The issue with this is that the heresy itself isn't based around that, it clearly is Atenism as you would expect it, even if it is a neo variant in the sense that it returns. Plus the fact that I don't think there is any evidence for Neo-Atenism within the Garamantes.

 

[Jamie Roberts]

Replacing it with a more plausible heresy could be an option.

Well, from what I can gather, the major proper heresy for modern Kemetics is people who want to worship Ap/ep alongside the Gods. This is completely incompatible with the mainline religion, which views The Snake as inherently bad with no redeeming qualities of any kind and as such not worthy of worship. Which is to say that the practice of including It in the pantheon could make for a decent basis for an in-game Heresy.

For a second one, maybe focus on the Horus/Sutekh fight, with a heretical faction which sides with Sutekh and views Horus as in the wrong, instead of the reverse. There are myths of Osiris raping Sutekh's wife in the lead up to Sutekh killing him, so the argument is viable. This one wouldn't need any new mechanics, I should think; the basic world view is the same. Sort of a fraticelli equivalent; the main religion reskinned.

And then... Hm, those may be the only good ones I've got off the top of my head. Ah well, its an idea.

 

[LDonahue]

There is nothing that forces us having Kemetic heresies though. ACR had it because their main criteria is not plausibility, but rather a focus on more ancient religions dead by the start of CK2. We have it integrated because it provides flavour to religions that still exist by 476, but our focus is different. If there is no heresy which is plausible we might as well have none.

The distinct Egyptian creation myths and pantheons could be grounds for dividing them, though that's questionable. Greco-Egyptian Syncretism could also possibly be another heresy and it's only been dead a short time from the mod's start.

How would that work? Even with an event chain it wouldn't be particularly plausible in my opinion.

You're right that it still wouldn't be particularly plausible, but I was thinking of something along the lines of the rediscovery of Akhetaten and its unique art by Kemetics sparking a heretical movement. Still really implausible, but not spontaneous. Hell, maybe an intrigue decision to convert you and your family is the best way to realistically implement it considering how it was founded in the first place.

The issue with this is that the heresy itself isn't based around that, it clearly is Atenism as you would expect it, even if it is a neo variant in the sense that it returns. Plus the fact that I don't think there is any evidence for Neo-Atenism within the Garamantes.

I was more saying generic sun worship based upon the Garamantian version of Egyptian paganism, though I could've been a lot clearer. Even then, though, you're right that it being Atenism wouldn't make sense.

 

[Gurkhal]

I will first confess that I haven't played WtWSMS- mod yet so ignore me if I talk nonsense here. The reason I respond is that I'm keeping an eye on the mod is for a chance to play it when the current version of the mod and CK2 stand united.

But one idea about not just Egyptian religion but all polytheistic religions is to simply not have "vanilla" pagan religions and "heresies" but rather focus it on cults. That way "heresies" could simply be movements to put another deity's cult than the current top-dog in the main seat of a population or character's priorities. This would solve the issue of orthodoxy and heresy within polytheistic framework as it wouldn't be a real heresy, just that another cult would challenge the present top-dog. And it could explain why these things pop up now and again. Atenism may be dead since a long time, but I figure that the idea that perhaps Sutekh (I think the spelling is...) or Thoth are really the most important gods for humans may crop up now and again regardless of connection with each other. Given how hereseis work I would imagine that this would be the most realistic way from my own knowledge of ancient and medieval polytheistic traditions, about which I in no way claim to be an expert.

Example: Instead of a "Germanic" pagan standard religion you've got "Cult of Thor" which is the most widespread and cults to Odin, Ullr, Frey, Saxnoth, Freya, Frigg as hereseis spread across the pagan Germanic world according with for example Odin in Svealand, Saxnoth in Saxony, Ullr in Austergautland and so on. If the Cult of Thor losses standing, then perhaps people in a province will turn to Freya or Ullr, while if Thor seems to deliver then more people may think that Thor is the Aesir who can aid them to bring home the bacon.

I don't think the mod team will adapt this due to the great labour it would mean to re-do the religious landscape and also research lots of different polytheistic traditions and so on. But I thought that I should mention this as perhaps an idea from a different perspective and so let me see what you guys think of it.

 

[Gurkhal]

I think having Atenism makes sense on some level. With the great spread of monotheistic religions from 350-700 (primarily Christianity and Islam), it could be plausible for some of the followers of the Ancient Egyptian religion to switch to Atenism so that they would be monotheistic yet keep many of their traditions. Just some food for thought.

This would also make sense, although perhaps some other name than "Atenism" would work better?