Why do you hate France?

[unmerged(5161)]

Why do people hate France? I dont mean people like Bill O'Reilly and the U.S. Congress. I am not making a reference to Freedom Fries. Why do people hate France so much in EU2 MP?

People like Peter Ebbesen and the Machiavelli Rising crew seem to think that France is somehow overpowered. A uber-state ready to conquer Europe. Where does this belief come from? I have played a lot of games and uber-France has NEVER been an issue.

However, uber-Spain IS an issue. Spain with a 600 income IS a threat to MP gaming. How come people like Peter Ebbesen, BiB, Archduke, RedPheonix, etc are supportive of repressing France but at the same time giving Spain free reign to rule the waves? I respect these people, but I hate to see them do this!

There is no cry to weaken Spain. In fact, there were changes in the betas that made her even more powerful by giving her less inflation. Spain needs MORE inflation to keep that huge income in check.

Meanwhile, England and Austria are relegated to the role of the eternally pathetic. England takes hundreds of years to develop and by the time she does Spain owns half the world. Austria is an income weakling with divided territory. Her land tech is all that saves her, imho. Austria benefits greatly from the new HRE rules, that is until Spain starts becoming the Emperor. Then Spain is the one getting extra income and manpower. Im sure that income is something Spain is really hurting for.

Lets get real! Can we stop this campaign to create French vassals in 1492 and take away her CB shields. Is that REALLY necessary? How about coming up with some way to limit Uber-Spain, the real problem of MP game balance. France is surrounded by enemies and easy to balance against if she becomes to powerful. However, a strong France is the only thing that can keep Spain in check.

Conclusion:
Stop picking on France!

 

[unmerged(17303)]

Personally, I hate Spain, not France.

Spain usually has England, Portugal, and Austria.

What does France have, Besides the lovely wars of religion?

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

Largely overpowered I say, as you mentioned.

And it´s deep. I mean a frech player will always have a place to recruit.

Uber-Spain?. ¿Like the underrated EGC? ¿Like Pescara having less stats than Von Frundsberg? I think Spain needs economic tweaking but a huge military push. Specially in GC.

Austria, OTHO, flows to Innovative without effort. That leads to tech leading, usually.

 

[Prince Eugene]

It seems that more and more frequently the more skilled players are ending up in France (RedPhoenix, yourself, Damocles, etc.). More and more you are also seeing less military potent people in Spain and more masterful economists. Spain is able to become very powerful and still "not be a threat" while France has a stack of manpower as well as the frequent addition of being intimidated by the player present. It's like the people that still use serfdom for every nation they play because it was cool in 1.05, just a ritual that never seems to pass.

I don't support weakening France other than the historical issues such as Bourbonaiss existing. I personally think that Spain is stronger than France at the beginning of the 1492 and that a French loss in war early on is merely a political advantage to slow down Spain in the long run.

 

[unmerged(5161)]

If we are going to be historical then, Eugene, why isnt there a push to lower Spanish tax values? With all their cores, France is only slightly richer than Spain (maybe 10d difference, I think). But France doesnt get tons of explorers and basically free territory right away like Spain does. Spain can be making double France in a decade. So why are we taking away things from France and forcing them to release vassals. Historically ever country was all vassals until the early 1600s. It is obvious these decisions were made to weaken France, historical pretenses are just the excuse.

Regarding good players being France, I agree with you there. Maybe we should take away some of the bad-ass economy of Spain though instead of penalize France. Spain/Austria/England can sqeeze France. Who can squeeze Spain?

Oh, I forgot...NO ONE!

Just think about it, how many games have you seen an uber-Spain? How many with an uber-France? I havent seen a single uber-France in MP with experienced players. Has anyone else? If they have, it was probably only once. However, I can think of dozens of times I have seen an uber-Spain. I can count on my fingers how many times I have NOT seen an uber-Spain. That is ridiculous.

Additionally, France has almost no natural allies. Venice and the Ottomans are the only people that gravitate to the French alliance. Spain on the other hand is allied with everyone and their mother.....except France of course.

EDIT: Added more ranting

 

[unmerged(15967)]

If historicity was the only consideration Aragon would be independent, too.

 

[unmerged(5161)]

Dont forget Sicily and Sardinia. Eire would be a pain (as of now, Eire is merely revolt-a-decade nuisance). Scotland would have a decent ability to defend itself. Austria would never annex Hungary or Bohemia, just gain them as vassals. The ottoman empire would be a massive system of vassals. The northern situation is somewhat realistic, though that may be more thanks to snow killing a million men a year than anything else.

Oh wait, I almost forgot. Spain also has CB on every non-Christian right? Oh yeah, it is historical for Spain to DOW the Iroquois. My ass!

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

No Freiherr, not.

Aragon was as independent as Wales is today

 

[unmerged(15967)]

Originally posted by ryoken69
Oh wait, I almost forgot. Spain also has CB on every non-Christian right? Oh yeah, it is historical for Spain to DOW the Iroquois. My ass!

Don't forget Bengal and the other muslim CoT owners. If anyone Portugal should have these permanent CBs on them. This is not modable, though (at least not the removal).

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

It´s funny, thre´s a long thread in the spanish forums about how France is overpowered.

Yep to Spain some tax value should be taken out in the industrial crisis of 1570, and 1640.

But should me militarily dominant until 1640, and able to crush france on her own, like she did.

Now it´s very difficult in MP.

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

Nobody cared about iroquis.

Everybody should have one AFAIK.

 

[unmerged(15967)]

Originally posted by Amadís de Gaula
It´s funny, thre´s a long thread in the spanish forums about how France is overpowered.

Yep to Spain some tax value should be taken out in the industrial crisis of 1570, and 1640.

But should me militarily dominant until 1640, and able to crush france on her own, like she did.

Now it´s very difficult in MP.

Supposing a skilled spanish player Spain can beat France 1 on 1. Even in the paradox scenario.

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

Yep, even in SP it may cost you tons of money

 

[unmerged(5161)]

In SP, AI Spain can support a billion troops and gets free money from other countries through gifts. I can still beat on them like a professional football player on a 2-year old. But I dont care about SP that much in this thread.

I agree about Portugal getting some CBs in India/Indonesia. No European should be penalized for DOWing a pagan. But when you hand this gift to a human Spain, they can DOW everything under the sun.

Amadis; you are forgetting this is a FEUDAL time period. The way we think about modern states is not relevant here. It is a stretch to even call these political entities countries, they are really just noble families (Habsburgs being the best example). Thus Aragon and friends should be freed.

But lets not be so obsessed with historical issues to be blind to game balance. Sure Spain was rich in real life. But in real life it didnt fight wars and made decisions like we do in MP.

Charles IV was very powerful in real life, but he did not live in a world of total war. In MP, you often find yourself in a total war. So lets not fool ourselves. Machiavelli Rising moved slightly in the direction towards limited war with the three provinces rule. I wasnt in that game though, so I cannot evaluate the effects fully.

Spain SHOULD NOT be able to take France on 1 on 1. She should need Austrian or English help. That is historical too.

EDIT: Almost forgot! Eugene: dont forget that these more experienced French players are often playing a colonial/economic game too!

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

Sorry Royken, Aragon not.

Did not have armies, did not have embassies, dis not have parliaments, or courts, did not have anything. Resurrect Cordoba´s caliphat also, then.

Fernando el católico wrote: The pride of my life is having reunited Spain.The kingdom of Spain belonged to Juana and Carlos


The troops in the Italian wars were castilian mainly. And I can continue "ad nauseam" demonstrating Aragon was not a country those years.

And about spanish manpower, look at french one.

Ejem you´re wrong about wars. Spain defeated Fance and his italian allies all alone in the 1st and the 3rd italian one. Literally crushed them.

So no, Spain should be able to crush france all alone, and not having to pray for help in MP. If we want to keep the game historical.

 

[unmerged(9945)]

Originally posted by Amadís de Gaula
Nobody cared about iroquis.

Everybody should have one AFAIK.

As someone who is part Iroqouis I need to comment. The Iroqouis nation was the strongest, richest, and most influential in ALL of North America and much more centralized than anyother North American indian tribe. They weren't just another indian tribe. Infact, the other indian tribes in this game are represented pretty poorly as they werent as sedentary as this game would lead you to believe. Many areas in NA could easily just be made native territory.

Please watch yourself before you make blanket statements that have no truth to them in the future.

 

[unmerged(9945)]

Back on topic, I agree that Spain is the biggest threat as an alliance with Spain and Austria can do alot to put down The French. The biggest problem is the new ability to have more players in MP. This gives Spain more amunition to eliminate The French threat and ppl are much more willing to plot against France than Spain.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by ryoken69
People like Peter Ebbesen and the Machiavelli Rising crew seem to think that France is somehow overpowered.

Because France, in the standard 1492 setup, is much too strong in the early sixteenth century and, partly because of interesting core shields, encouraged to wipe the floor with Austria ASAP.

I do not mind seing a strong, centralised, and vibrant France under Louis XIV - I do mind that it is trivial to achieve 150 years earlier.

Thus, any changes to the French position that I implement are intended to slow down that process, not to eliminate it or to ultimately weaken France.

As for France vs Spain, I tend to believe that one-on-one, Spain should be rather more likely to prevail until the mid-seventeenth century. (Is that not what happened in the Italian wars?) In MP, the issue is often that Austria and Spain runs so close a game, that war with one is a guarantee of war with the other, but that cannot be resolved by changing the game setup, only by the way the players play the game.

 

[unmerged(5161)]

While it is easy to say, "but the English/French never got really powerful until the late 1600s!" it is ultimately hot air. Sure it is true. But the way the game usually goes, Spain never "declines" and England and France arrive in the colonial game to see the Spanish owning every Asian COT around.

Dont beat up on France and England. Implement some measure to keep Spain from taking every COT in Asia before the English/French even get there!

 

[TheArchduke]

Originally posted by ryoken69
While it is easy to say, "but the English/French never got really powerful until the late 1600s!" it is ultimately hot air. Sure it is true. But the way the game usually goes, Spain never "declines" and England and France arrive in the colonial game to see the Spanish owning every Asian COT around.

Dont beat up on France and England. Implement some measure to keep Spain from taking every COT in Asia before the English/French even get there!

Spain has too many explorers so she can explore Asia at her leisure and additonally she has too big trade efficiency. Lower her to 2 and she won´t be too fast too über prolly. Same with OE.