Is the 7-year old playing cowboys and indians enjoying it because "They enjoy killing other humans and displacing natives" or are they just enjoying the adventure and roleplaying parts of it?
Why do we consider purging/genocide to be "COOL"? Is something wrong with us?
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I always purged because it was the only way to get rid of undesireble races. With Utopia I might just make them move away.
Modern society depends on supressing many of the more unsavory urges that survival of the fittest has instilled in humanity as a whole and people individually.
From a survival perspective, "look out for number 1" is and always has been the ultimate rule for surviving. Being nice is all good and well when you can afford it, but mother nature has been very clear that when the hammer drops, it's everyone for him or herself if you want to pass on your genes.
This ties in with purging because it is, in essence, the cold, calculating decision that will most benefit your race. For the survival of your race, the best outcome would be if all of the galaxy was empty save for you. No competition, no aliens to take up resources or potentially becoming a threat to you or yours.
There is just something deep down inside where your primitive lizard lives that thinks "This is mine and you can't have it". Hundreds to thousands of years of cooperating against the predators may have taught us that cooperation is better than a war to the knife, but that's a far cry from the millions of years of genetic experience that tells you that the lizard that gets to eat gets to live, so you had better chase all the other lizards away from what's yours.
Games like Stellaris just allow you to live out a few of those urges in a way that hurts nobody. It lets you do what your hindbrain thinks would be the right idea, satisfying that itch without actually doing anything society objects to.
It's the same thing that makes places like 4chan attractive - you can be a huge douche and nobody has to know or care when you are back in the office.
From a survival perspective, "look out for number 1" is and always has been the ultimate rule for surviving. Being nice is all good and well when you can afford it, but mother nature has been very clear that when the hammer drops, it's everyone for him or herself if you want to pass on your genes.
This ties in with purging because it is, in essence, the cold, calculating decision that will most benefit your race. For the survival of your race, the best outcome would be if all of the galaxy was empty save for you. No competition, no aliens to take up resources or potentially becoming a threat to you or yours.
There is just something deep down inside where your primitive lizard lives that thinks "This is mine and you can't have it". Hundreds to thousands of years of cooperating against the predators may have taught us that cooperation is better than a war to the knife, but that's a far cry from the millions of years of genetic experience that tells you that the lizard that gets to eat gets to live, so you had better chase all the other lizards away from what's yours.
Games like Stellaris just allow you to live out a few of those urges in a way that hurts nobody. It lets you do what your hindbrain thinks would be the right idea, satisfying that itch without actually doing anything society objects to.
It's the same thing that makes places like 4chan attractive - you can be a huge douche and nobody has to know or care when you are back in the office.
Also, remember that ability to commit virtual genocide is actually pretty rare. I mean, most video games don't really dare to venture that deep. Sure, there is truckloads of gore and killing in video game industry, but I don't really remember many strategy games with such advanced mechanics for slavery and purging. I mean, xenophobe ethos is really just racist ethos. And it is awesome that Paradox gives us so much freedom to be dictators and supervillains!
It is actually pretty moralist, when you think of Hearts of Iron. There we play as ACTUAL NAZIS but there is no trace of racist policies, genocide and war crimes. I'd say it can be even more harmful to cut these things from representation of this kind of evil empire, since then you can just ignore that you are playing as goddamn nazis. Stellaris has got me think ethical questions here and there since it gives me ability to do horrible things.
I was playing fanatic spiritualist-xenophobes, but in my RP it was just mostly that xeno weren't GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE and thus second-class-citizens, but I wasn't genocidial or anything. I conquered few primitive worlds, and then the factions started. At first I slaved the xeno, but eventually I got stability and happiness for my pops only by purging them (ethics divergence is one hell of a force).
Then xenophile FE asked for my pop to safe-keep in their zoo, so that they would outlive any cosmic catastrophe. I realized I had purged two unique species completely off the map - millions of years of evolution in their respective planets was just brought to an end to give a bit of stability to my empire.
Later I conquered that particular FE's alien preserve and massacred all specimens there. After I had commited my first genocide, purging became easier and easier way to end problems. It was pretty terrifying, now when you think of it.
Since Utopia makes it possible to change ethoses, I can see even more possibilities with these mechanics. Even xenophiles can be radicalized to change into xenophobes.
It is actually pretty moralist, when you think of Hearts of Iron. There we play as ACTUAL NAZIS but there is no trace of racist policies, genocide and war crimes. I'd say it can be even more harmful to cut these things from representation of this kind of evil empire, since then you can just ignore that you are playing as goddamn nazis. Stellaris has got me think ethical questions here and there since it gives me ability to do horrible things.
I was playing fanatic spiritualist-xenophobes, but in my RP it was just mostly that xeno weren't GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE and thus second-class-citizens, but I wasn't genocidial or anything. I conquered few primitive worlds, and then the factions started. At first I slaved the xeno, but eventually I got stability and happiness for my pops only by purging them (ethics divergence is one hell of a force).
Then xenophile FE asked for my pop to safe-keep in their zoo, so that they would outlive any cosmic catastrophe. I realized I had purged two unique species completely off the map - millions of years of evolution in their respective planets was just brought to an end to give a bit of stability to my empire.
Later I conquered that particular FE's alien preserve and massacred all specimens there. After I had commited my first genocide, purging became easier and easier way to end problems. It was pretty terrifying, now when you think of it.
Since Utopia makes it possible to change ethoses, I can see even more possibilities with these mechanics. Even xenophiles can be radicalized to change into xenophobes.
the weak go away while the strong thrive - its a fact of nature that modern society wants us to surpass, but it is hardcoded in the genome of all species on this planet and most probably on most (if not all) planets out there
what you are experiencing is a feeling called venting - and the primal part of the brain (me be strong caveman!!!) getting what it wants
you can take the high road of moral dominance and protecting the weak, but fact of the matter is that people do what they want and what feels good and right, and they help other because it makes them feel good in the end - yes you can be altruistic even if the base logic behind it is purely selfish
what you are experiencing is a feeling called venting - and the primal part of the brain (me be strong caveman!!!) getting what it wants
you can take the high road of moral dominance and protecting the weak, but fact of the matter is that people do what they want and what feels good and right, and they help other because it makes them feel good in the end - yes you can be altruistic even if the base logic behind it is purely selfish
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That "killing other humans and displacing natives" does contain "advantures" parts is the actual wierd thing.
But then again yeah some could say "lizard brain" "negative emotions" etc.
But why are certain people not intrested in war games of any kind? (not even talking about those who saw real war/killing).
Very good points about Hearts of Iron. Thats like the other side of the coin.
The point of this question is indeed: why is this a fun, or cool "role" to play?
"One death is a tragedy. A million deaths is just a statistic.
Billions of Xenos Cleased is fun."
-Trak'xi DIctator Ioxit Staf'in
Billions of Xenos Cleased is fun."
-Trak'xi DIctator Ioxit Staf'in
@ the OP
What is it you want to accomplish with this outrage about virtual genocides?
If you want to make the world a better place start with your own pair of shoes. Go out and help people that want and actually need help.
Maybe I am leaning myself wide out of the window but I bet none of the people here would even want to hurt anybody in reality let alone killing someone or whole species... What people want is to immerse in a story that is about more than just their usual day to day life. What is bad about that? There is noone actually suffering or anything. Just bits and bytes.
What is it you want to accomplish with this outrage about virtual genocides?
If you want to make the world a better place start with your own pair of shoes. Go out and help people that want and actually need help.
Maybe I am leaning myself wide out of the window but I bet none of the people here would even want to hurt anybody in reality let alone killing someone or whole species... What people want is to immerse in a story that is about more than just their usual day to day life. What is bad about that? There is noone actually suffering or anything. Just bits and bytes.
Yeeeeaaaaaahhhhhh..... that's a bit of an abrupt change of subject but since that happened awhile ago, and you're still confused about it I guess I'll take a swing at an explanation.
First off, I am personally of the opinion that there should be no arbiters of good taste for video games. Nor do I think we should be stopping anybody from being vocally racist. This is largely selfish, as I like to know who to avoid. But since this has happened awhile ago, I've seen this discussion before, and I have empathy, I do have an understanding of how the people who disagree with me feel, so let me take a swing at explaining this to you.
Comedy is tragedy plus distance and, for better or worse, Stellaris is targeted to western nations where the last attempted Genocide was over 50 years ago. If this game were being made in 1950's Poland, it probably wouldn't have a genocide option OR decent graphics. If this game were made in modern day Rwawanda, it also probably wouldn't have genocide or decent graphics. But this game is being made in Sweden and being marketed towards nations ready to consider genocide abstractly within the safe space provided by a computer game. The same things don't apply to racism. There is no distance from racism, it's still a very real force in western society today. Not just in America, but in many western nations. Germany, France, the United Kingdom, you don't need to look far to find racism as a hot button issue. So I don't blame Paradox for taking a pass at this issue by removing a controversial mod.
Then there's the community aspect. Paradox is trying to create a product that appeals to a wide demographic market. One of the draws of that is community building. Racists are generally not very pleasant people, and in terms of community building, they're not great for it unless it's a community of other racists.
But you know what, I'd say those are acceptable drawbacks if the 'all white mod' brought anything to the game. But it doesn't, limiting human phenotypes to only white people is not an interesting game mechanic. I'd go to the mat for xenophobia, though it's basically racism on steroids, because playing a xenophobic race makes the game different enough from playing any other type of race to be enjoyable. I'd go to the mat for genocide, despite it being the most horrible thing I can imagine, because it's an interesting game mechanic. The entire idea of who can and can not commit genocide, the benefits of that and the way it may outweigh the benefits of taking a course that restricted genocide, these are all interesting strategic choices, which is why population purging has been expanded on in this expansion. Only having white people is not an interesting strategic choice, allowing its inclusion does not justify the negatives it brings.
I hope that explains why your original post and your follow up are two entirely separate issues.
Closed for off topic.
Whilst this thread does use a stellaris mechanic as a point of reference, it is more a general discussion about morals in gaming. As well as the discussion being much more about gaming in general.
If you wish to continue the conversation, make a thread in the OT forum.
Thanks,
Dylan
Whilst this thread does use a stellaris mechanic as a point of reference, it is more a general discussion about morals in gaming. As well as the discussion being much more about gaming in general.
If you wish to continue the conversation, make a thread in the OT forum.
Thanks,
Dylan
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