Why do Tribal Federations have no tech/Institution penalties

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Santos Valorion

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Hey All,
I find it a bit weird that the new Tribal Government has no negatives to have it, even though it is a Tribal Government. They get all bonuses and no downsides so there is no reason to ever switch, can some explain why that is?
Thanks.
 

AirikrStrife

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If so it makes no sense, but at the same time the Chinese/Indian/Subsahara get no penalty on institution and can sometimes spawn them! Well, I've never tried the old technology system since I am rather new, but it makes more sense to me LOL
 

Rider_of_Doom

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The old system was better in reflecting the reality (to a degree), but for the health of the game it was awful and really bad. It wasn't fun to encounter the Europeans and pray, that they don't attack you until the westernization was done.
 

DarkBlue

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The old system was better in reflecting the reality (to a degree), but for the health of the game it was awful and really bad. It wasn't fun to encounter the Europeans and pray, that they don't attack you until the westernization was done.
You are right that the old system was too disadvantageous to non-Europeans, and the new one kills two bird in one stone as the country benefits from getting both institutions and great provinces.

But do we have to be so extreme like nowadays when India can compete with Europe in terms of tech because of Goa?? Or seeing Enlightenment appearing in some remote, small countries?? Technology level of a nation reflects the overall effectiveness of its government, and that's why the corrupt Qing Empire failed to modernize like neighbouring Japan, despite having tremendous advantage in resources. Now ROTW has it too easy, a good comprise would be to add different levels of penalties on them for embracing institutions, unless they undergo some reforms (at a more lenient way than the old westernization process).

And specifically on Enlightenment, I can't see why it should appear on anywhere outside Europe because it was a movement caused by European philosophers. But it won't affect game-play anyway since anyone with cash can spam it.
 

ringhloth

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You are right that the old system was too disadvantageous to non-Europeans, and the new one kills two bird in one stone as the country benefits from getting both institutions and great provinces.

But do we have to be so extreme like nowadays when India can compete with Europe in terms of tech because of Goa?? Or seeing Enlightenment appearing in some remote, small countries?? Technology level of a nation reflects the overall effectiveness of its government, and that's why the corrupt Qing Empire failed to modernize like neighbouring Japan, despite having tremendous advantage in resources. Now ROTW has it too easy, a good comprise would be to add different levels of penalties on them for embracing institutions, unless they undergo some reforms (at a more lenient way than the old westernization process).

And specifically on Enlightenment, I can't see why it should appear on anywhere outside Europe because it was a movement caused by European philosophers. But it won't affect game-play anyway since anyone with cash can spam it.
Institutions are a good change, but the last few institutions need a lot of work. Asia was competitive with Europe until 1600 or 1650, and then started falling behind. As it is right now, Asia starts falling behind immediately but then starts to catch up around 1650.
 

pizzapicante27

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Its always interesting to see the exact point in which a post changes to another unrelated subject.

I prefer this system, in fact I'd like it if Institutions would spread more globally through trade or something after a point.
For the record I hope the reason Tribal Federations are getting this treatement is that the rest of the Tribal governments are getting some attention (I would love a Mesoamerican region with governments that were slightly historically accurate in the future rather than not at all as it is right now).
To talk about historical accuracy in the early game or in the set dates is one thing, but to talk about it in the late game is kind of... yeah, unless I skipped the part in history class about Vikings invading Europe in the name of Odin or Ming sticking around until the Industrial revolution, I think its kind of a moot point.

And its not like the whole European tech advantage at this point in history holds that much merit either, people often talk about "European tech" as if it was universally Britain-in-the-Victorian-era levels from 1600 onwards and everyone else was in the stone age or something, the reality is that much of Europe was agricultural and dependant on artesanal guilds and manufacturies, like the rest of the world, that was one of the driving forces behind the fall of Metternich and the 1848 revolutions after all, Great Britain-level technology was the exception rather than the norm up until the tail end decades of the 19th century, much of their gains were due to the political instability most of the world found itself at that time rather than exceptional technology most of the time.

And its not like Great Britain was in some kind of technological singularity either, India and China were more productive in terms of both quantity and quality, to give you an example according to wikipedia, the Bengal province alone was producing somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,232,500 tons of shipbuilding while the entire British Empire's amounted to 340,000 tons, and this only really began to change at the end of the century for decidedly political reasons, even then, with how unstable the continent was, I should remind you, the British went bankrupt invading India, like actual insolubility broken, and that was just a few years after the african Ashanti Empire defeated them during the Second Anglo-Ashanti war (the first one was kind of a draw after the British brought in local allied troops), the industiralisation didnt turn the British into a technologically superior country at the flip of a coin, rather their Empire was built on political manuever ----> that resulted in economic gain ----> which THEN fueled the technological edge they would gain (for a few short decades) at the END of the 19th century, NOT the other way around, or so I think.

... jeez, I really should learn to make shorter arguments.
 
Last edited:

macd21

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Hey All,
I find it a bit weird that the new Tribal Government has no negatives to have it, even though it is a Tribal Government. They get all bonuses and no downsides so there is no reason to ever switch, can some explain why that is?
Thanks.

The main benefit of the tribal federations comes from Tribal Allegiance. However the rate of tribal allegiance decay increases as you go up in development. Eventually you get to a point where it's essentially impossible to maintain tribal allegiance, making it useless. At which point the other government types start looking good.
 

DarkBlue

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Its always interesting to see the exact point in which a post changes to another unrelated subject.

I prefer this system, in fact I'd like it if Institutions would spread more globally through trade or something after a point.
For the record I hope the reason Tribal Federations are getting this treatement is that the rest of the Tribal governments are getting some attention (I would love a Mesoamerican region with governments that were slightly historically accurate in the future rather than not at all as it is right now).
To talk about historical accuracy in the early game or in the set dates is one thing, but to talk about it in the late game is kind of... yeah, unless I skipped the part in history class about Vikings invading Europe in the name of Odin or Ming sticking around until the Industrial revolution, I think its kind of a moot point.

And its not like the whole European tech advantage at this point in history holds that much merit either, people often talk about "European tech" as if it was universally Britain-in-the-Victorian-era levels from 1600 onwards and everyone else was in the stone age or something, the reality is that much of Europe was agricultural and dependant on artesanal guilds and manufacturies, like the rest of the world, that was one of the driving forces behind the fall of Metternich and the 1848 revolutions after all, Great Britain-level technology was the exception rather than the norm up until the tail end decades of the 19th century, much of their gains were due to the political instability most of the world found itself at that time rather than exceptional technology most of the time.

And its not like Great Britain was in some kind of technological singularity either, India and China were more productive in terms of both quantity and quality, to give you an example according to wikipedia, the Bengal province alone was producing somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,232,500 tons of shipbuilding while the entire British Empire's amounted to 340,000 tons, and this only really began to change at the end of the century for decidedly political reasons, even then, with how unstable the continent was, I should remind you, the British went bankrupt invading India, like actual insolubility broken, and that was just a few years after the african Ashanti Empire defeated them during the Second Anglo-Ashanti war (the first one was kind of a draw after the British brought in local allied troops), the industiralisation didnt turn the British into a technologically superior country at the flip of a coin, rather their Empire was built on political manuever ----> that resulted in economic gain ----> which THEN fueled the technological edge they would gain (for a few short decades) at the END of the 19th century, NOT the other way around, or so I think.

... jeez, I really should learn to make shorter arguments.
Thanks for the history class. But thenwhy was Europe the leading region in the world?

I know that East Asia was back then rather isolated to other powers, and all the governments (Jap, Qing, Korea) had no need to compete with other countries & innovate, they would rather block new technology from abroad to protect the old way. So we were already quite backward in the 17th century. But again why Europe? Is there anything peculiar to Europe that caused the Industrial Revolution? Would it be the something like scientific thoughts? And whatever it is, can we model it by perhaps adding 1 or 2 late game institutions again??

Anyway, I believe the late game tech level in ROTW should more or less correlate to history if there is no player intervention.
 

Less2

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The main benefit of the tribal federations comes from Tribal Allegiance. However the rate of tribal allegiance decay increases as you go up in development. Eventually you get to a point where it's essentially impossible to maintain tribal allegiance, making it useless. At which point the other government types start looking good.

The main benefit of tribal federations are -separatism and -province warscore cost. Especially the latter at Empire rank, the maximum of taking 100% WS per war is the one limiting mechanic that can't be sidestepped in the same way that OE can be beaten by feeding vassals or AE by staggering truces with everyone.

Tribal Allegiance is a nice cherry on top, and it's not too hard to keep high since the penalty caps out at a certain point while bigger empires can stay at war constantly. Though I'm not sure if the TA gained per battle depends on force limit or something similar, if so it would eventually become impossible to keep up.
 

Celdur

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Thanks for the history class. But thenwhy was Europe the leading region in the world?

I know that East Asia was back then rather isolated to other powers, and all the governments (Jap, Qing, Korea) had no need to compete with other countries & innovate, they would rather block new technology from abroad to protect the old way. So we were already quite backward in the 17th century. But again why Europe? Is there anything peculiar to Europe that caused the Industrial Revolution? Would it be the something like scientific thoughts? And whatever it is, can we model it by perhaps adding 1 or 2 late game institutions again??

Anyway, I believe the late game tech level in ROTW should more or less correlate to history if there is no player intervention.

Because Europe industrialized during the XIX century and most of the rest didn't, thing is that Industrialization gives you a 1000% advantage in all aspects compared to agricultural and guild-based countries which is why it became the leading region in the world. I would say that the real advantage they had during the whole timeframe was shipbuilding (consistently competitive when it came to ships with cannons) and exploration, add to it that all the Wealth of the Americans flowed exclusively to Western Europe fueling its economies for centuries an advantage no other region in the world had along with the import of more varied and superior crops, like the Potato from Peru, they also went ahead and opened up trade routes all over the world and where interested in learning and improving on any advanced tech they happened to find, ever since the Portuguese won several wars on the Indian Ocean during the 1500's Europe has been able to tap that region for wealth ever since, along with the Spanish conquering the Phillipines, setting up and controlling worldwide trade routes for centuries.

As to why England (not "Europe") industrialized first, it is a massive debate, but it spread to the nearest continent first after that and remember that many major European countries where not industrialized until the end of the XIXth and most only during the XXth century, even now in the XXIst there are still major imbalances in European development across the continent. African tribal nations where only able to be conquered with "superior tech" only at the very end if the XIX century after all, and once the africans got their hands on more or less up-to-date rifles decolonization was pretty quick.

There is too much myth about European "dominance" i'de agree with the thesis that they developed solid political systems and that reslience allowed them to progress faster than other regions, even until now, and that's really the "secret".
 

pizzapicante27

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Thanks for the history class. But then why was Europe the leading region in the world?

When? in the 15th or 16th centuries? I dont think anyone even cared where Europe was, in the 17th century? in the 19th century?, because those I already answered them in the comment above.

I know that East Asia was back then rather isolated to other powers, and all the governments (Jap, Qing, Korea) had no need to compete with other countries & innovate,

Its not that they activelly blocked new tech, as I told you they were the leading producers of everything back then, they didnt "block" things, they simply had no need of them, and it makes sense, they imported nothing from Europe except gold and silver, and Europe imported everything they produced.

But again why Europe? Is there anything peculiar to Europe that caused the Industrial Revolution?

Well, not "Europe", more like "Great Britain and nobody else up until basically the dawn of the 20th century", as I pointed out 2 or 3 or 4 times in my previous comment, Europe as a whole is an agricultural and manufacturing place right up to the end of the 19th century/beginning of the 20th century (place it around 1870-ish and thats were most of Europe began a process of Industrialization), not particularly different from Asia or even some of the more settled parts of Africa.

As for your question, well its a combination of things, to my appreciation the one advantage Britain had over the other countries in the world, the key elements are the the dawn of the capitalist society: privately owned banks and industries, lots of resousources from the colonies, the previous agricultural revolution which allowed for city-dwelling populations, and a need for cotton-based clothing... I actually thats the main one really, England really, REALLY needed a way to quickly produce cotton clothing, otherwise about the only thing they could sell other countries in their region didnt already had a source of was like, fish, or really, really scary scottsmen.
 
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