Why do the Scandanavian countries still have conscription?

[unmerged(589)]

About the threat to Sweden: As has been said Russia is the big one and has been that since long before Sweden started using conscription. In the Swedish armed forces (like those of several other European countries) you train for fighting Russians. You shoot cardboard Russians, talk and sing about killing Russians and in all the soldier's manuals etc the enemy is depicted using Russian equipment and methods. And as long as Russia doesn't change this will be so (no offense to anyone).

I am personally very happy that I did get the chance to be in the army, it was great fun and completely different from other things you normally do in life. To all the Swedes who are about to do their military service I want to say: Congratulations on winning this absurd lottery we have these days when not everyone gets the chance, and have fun!

Note: Of course I think it's crazy to punish people who refuse to serve now that we don't need every able-bodied man anymore.

 

[Den Leeuw]

Hi, can you explain to me how one is selected to serve in the Swedish army? I don't really understand this "lottery"-system.
Conscription in Belgium has been abolished for quite a few years now, and I'm happy about it. Russia is a long way from here

 

[unmerged(4134)]

There´s no lottery system. Every guy have to go to this test where it´s decided if, when and how you will do it.

 

[unmerged(589)]

Yes, I merely meant that it's crazy to arbitrarily tax some guys but not others. Not the best word to use though since some countries have real lotteries. My bad.

 

[D-Dave]

Ëmperor of Europe -
Of course NATO would be able to spare some material, but not manpower, to the scandinavian countries. The northern sector would be extremely important for control of the Atlantic and thus securing/threatening american reinforcements to Europe. And dont forget that Norway is a NATO country. It is no secret Sweden cooperated with NATO even though we officially remained neutral.

I fail to see how going into ambushes in Tjetjenia and other places could be explained as Maskirovka? Does the russians intentionally sacrifice men in order to make us believe they arent strong strategist? The russians rely on numbers, the main strike on Europe would be with massive tank forces -and not possible without. I dont know, I may be wrong, but its not very common that you hear of outstanding russian military operations with hardly any losses. Post WW2 at least. I´d be delighted to be proven wrong.


The talk of nuclear weapons is kind of interesting. There is no doubt that Soviet would have used a lot of tactical nukes, preferrably at already known US bases in Germany and other places. No doubt they would have used them in Scandinavia as well.

Still, how do you attack and remove hidden and entrenched infantry from forests, hills and mountains? You dont nuke the entire country. Tanks get bogged down and ambushed. OK, the T-80 is tough (standard defence doctrine regarding T-80s: run away!) but shoot at the tracks and it cant move. And it cant go everywhere. Now we have Leopard 2s, but I am talking 70s and 80s when we had the S-103 and Centurions...
BMPs are "easy" to take out. Planes cant see what to attack in forests, artillery does not get rid of entrenched units. Helicopters are too vulnerable. Thus remains infantry = losses. Lack of nightvision equipment would have been a problem though hehe.
The soviets would have had to fight a lot to get to the Atlantic. OK, they might have been able to capture most of Finland and Sweden, and reach the Atlantic in Norway. Then what? Soviet soldiers slowly dying from ambushes by guerilla fighters (after all an occupant only controls the area where there are friendly troops and no enemy fighting back) an economy not allowing a long war, massive protests and interventions from the rest of the world, a possible nuclear war.
Good thing they werent stupid enough to try.

 

[unmerged(4953)]

The winter war was when ? 60 years ago ? And what happened in the end? The Russians won. Of course Stalin had to worry about Hitler AND the Western Nations so he couldnt exactly annex Finland. Besides he didnt watn to annex Finland, he wanted some land. The fins said no. he said fine.

 

[unmerged(7651)]

Originally posted by ZheShiWO
The winter war was when ? 60 years ago ? And what happened in the end? The Russians won. Of course Stalin had to worry about Hitler AND the Western Nations so he couldnt exactly annex Finland. Besides he didnt watn to annex Finland, he wanted some land. The fins said no. he said fine.

Here goes some information regarding winter war
http://www.winterwar.com/mainpage.htm
If you didn't know there was exactly 2 wars between Soviets and Finland; winter war and continuous war.

In EU terms; how many "procents" does half of the province of Kexholm hold? 2%-5%?
That's not enough to annex Finland...
What comes to present situation, you really are underestimating Finlands and Swedens military forces and determination to defend our fatherlands

And Stalin did want to annex Finland, his purpose before winter war was to conquer Finland in two weeks. And we all know what happened...

But why to argue about this? Here, in Tampere, lives some russians who I know and they are not so bad fellas at all.
Let us keep our military doctrine, where we are told to fight againts "yellow" forces who allways come from east with T-72's, bmp's, T-80's and hordes of infantry...

 

[D-Dave]

Yeah, I wanna keep my prejudice! Russians are evil! And they are many! Their sheer numbers are a threat to anyone living near them! They always want to expand! Bad russians!

 

[unmerged(4953)]

In EU terms; how many "procents" does half of the province of Kexholm hold? 2%-5%?
That's not enough to annex Finland...

Thats true but they broke the Finish defense when they captured half of Kexholm so if it werent for Hitler AND the Allies the Finns would be back in the Russian empire.
Stalin bungled it when he created hte peoples finish republic or some other rubish like that. Before that I dont think the Finns realy wanted to fight a war, after that they did.

 

[unmerged(7651)]

No. Russians did not broke those last defences. If you are meaning the "mannerheim" -line, yes russians broke that defence line. Finnish forces pulled back and formed another line that hold until the end of the Winter War. Russians did not manage to capture Vyborg. Why Stalin wanted to end that war? It was enormous waste of men, tanks, artillery...
It just wasn't worth to annex Finland.

 

[unmerged(4134)]

Wasn´t Mannerheim swedish?

 

[unmerged(7651)]

Do you recall suomussalmi, raate road, summa-sector battles? In those battles, especially summa-sector, it became clear that soviets could not take Finland without enormous losses.

Raate road: 2 soviet division completely annihilated by one finnish regiment.

Of course there was this german and allied thing included, as you say.

"Before that I dont think the Finns realy wanted to fight a war, after that they did."

I think that every independent nation would fight back if they get invaded...
Soviets started the war. Do you really think that finns fought back only because this marionettegovernment? I dont think so!

 

[unmerged(7651)]

no mannerheim was finnish
Although his mothertongue was (probably) swedish.
If you didn't know that there are finnish speaking finns and swedish speaking finns. We are all the same stock.
He was born on the family estate at Louhisaari in Askainen on the 4th of June, 1867. His birthday is celebrated as the Flag Day of the Finnish Armed Forces.

http://www.mannerheim.fi/tori_e/tori.htm

Mannerheim's family background was noble, Finnish and Swedish-speaking.

 

[unmerged(4953)]

I think that every independent nation would fight back if they get invaded...
Soviets started the war. Do you really think that finns fought back only because this marionettegovernment? I dont think so!

I dont know. I think the Finns would have been willing to move back 30 miles from the Soviet borders. But not after the Russians created a Finnish Communist Government in exhile.

 

[unmerged(4763)]

Originally posted by Heyesey
There's an obvious other point which you have not noted: national service (which doesn't necessarily have to be military) creates a sense of duty in the young, while they're still young enough to have some sort of a work ethic instilled into them. I only wish we'd had a system here in the UK, when I was 16, that required two years' national service of some form or other.

That's an important point. I don't know about Sweden and Finland, but at least in Norway a person can avoid the conscription simply by declaring himself a pacifist. However, that person will still have to perform some other "national duty", like working in some health-care institution or something for a certain time-period. Hence, a sence of duty that affects anyone, like "if you don't want (or can't) do this, you will have to do that".

 

[unmerged(4763)]

As for the conscription service

I've read somewhere that Norway's population (4.5 million) is simply too small to rely on a professional army - an army that obviously would be recruited from a relatively small part of the population. (You know, guys who actually would be more interested in being "professional soldiers" than building up a much more lucrative and sensible career in the civilian life).

Hence, I think the conscription service is the best way for smaller countries to maintain a somewhat competent defence system. After all, in case of an attack on Norway, something like 80%(?) of the entire Norwegian male population between 19 and 45 will be called out to join their particular "mobilization unit" - something they have been trained and prepared for on a more or less regular basis since they were doing their general conscription service.

No professional Norwegian army could ever match that number. Of course, a professional army will be better trained and would probably do a better job wherever they faced some action, but it seems like the grand philosophy here is something like: Better have 800 000 men (including civilians and people serving in the Home Guard) having some clue of "how to fight a modern defence war in your own country" than relying on a small, costy and professional army of about 8%(?) of the entire mobilization army we have now.

I think both Sweden and Finland have something of a similar philosophy.

And, just to mention it, the entire Norwegian defence policy is to delay any attacking enemy (guess who ) as much as possible in order to give our allies time to move in.

Again: I think both Sweden and Finland have something of a similar philosophy - although neither of them actually have any military-alliance with anyone. Nevertheless, there's no way that NATO (including some major EU-countries) would just sit there and watch if one or both of these countries were attacked by the Rus... errh, a "potential enemy". And I think the Swedes and Finns are perfectly aware of that.

(Tip: Visit the Swedish Department of Defence (or whatever they call it in Sweden) and dig through their archives. If you find some top-secret agreement between Sweden and US, I will NOT be surprised...)

 

[unmerged(234)]

Originally posted by VingTor
That's an important point. I don't know about Sweden and Finland, but at least in Norway a person can avoid the conscription simply by declaring himself a pacifist. However, that person will still have to perform some other "national duty", like working in some health-care institution or something for a certain time-period. Hence, a sence of duty that affects anyone, like "if you don't want (or can't) do this, you will have to do that".

Same in Sweden, but they will be called to an inerview to confirm that they are telling the truth about being pacifists(or that was how it was in my time, ten years ago).

 

[maekh]

Ah well these days you will most likely be denied military service if you don't want to do it..

btw I will do the "mönstring" February 20th , then I will know if I have to do the military service or not..

 

[peo]

conscription

Conscription is a goog thing used correctly.
But Sweden for one is not using it as it is supposed, sadly they are trying to use it as a professional military which means enourmous costs and little "bang for the busc" so to speak.
All the scandinavian countries would be able to have a proffesional military but it would be smaller than the one they can have with conscription. IMO Sweden could have a proffesional military with about 50000 soldiers in it and reserves of about dubble that so Finland and Norway would be able to have about half that as they are half of Swedens size.
But of course the best would be if they both rejoined ther mother country Sweden

Paul Göransson

 

[unmerged(4433)]

Re: conscription

Originally posted by peo
But of course the best would be if they both rejoined ther mother country Sweden

There there. Nothing to be ashamed about in having your country chopped to pieces. If you can't fight a war, you can't fight a war. I'm sure you excel in other things, like, err...uhm... well, just because Elofsson couldn't ski 30 km doesn't necessarily mean he can't get a medal in the other events.