Why do people hate Netherlands so much?

[Dominion]

I may have asked this before, but we just had it pop up again in Discord and it was a rather fun conversation. At least for me.

I told them one of the - if not the - most hated events in the game is the Netherlands declaring indepence and everyone is either moving their capital or culture converting their land.
I never did either.

Followed by silence. "Why would anyone do that?".

I've been asking myself the question for a long time.
Why do people move their capital to prevent dutch revolts.
You can just fully annex the Netherlands.
Stops Dutch revolts as well.

I doubt people don't know about that. So why does everyone move their capital, why do people keep complaining about it.

Just annex them?

 

[jdavis86]

It is a fair point. One issue that comes to mind is the event based alliances they'll get. So it may not be a super easy war if stacks of Elan! roll in, but I guess by that point the player usually is overwhelmingly strong.

You don't keep your cores after they revolt, do you?

I've never moved my capital to avoid the revolts, just stick a stack up there to deal with things.

I love the Netherlands! One of my favorite countries in the game though their monarch stuff gets a little annoying these days.

 

[User29]

I move my capital for a couple of reasons, as I'm sure a lot of people do, I like the land in general as a capital, usually some solid farmlands you can power dev up in a rich trade node, and I want to avoid the revolt as it might happen to fire if I'm say in an overseas war or at war with the HRE/France/Turks etc. I don't want an enemy carving out my own rich core provinces to fight me with them if it's a fairly negligent cost to avoid it, and the benefits of having a capital in the area are actually fairly solid on their own merits.

 

[Bouchart]

It should be reworked as some kind of Reformation Age or Absolutism Age disaster rather than a bunch of random uprisings.

 

[Badesumofu]

I've found PUing Burgundy seems to prevent the revolts altogether.

I suspect that why people hate it is that no one likes giving up territory, even temporarily. It's that thing where we over-value stuff we already have. So everyone chooses to drown in endless rebels instead which is no fun.

I expect it will be overhauled in 1.25 anyway along with the BI.

 

[User29]

I've found PUing Burgundy seems to prevent the revolts altogether.

I suspect that why people hate it is that no one likes giving up territory, even temporarily. It's that thing where we over-value stuff we already have. So everyone chooses to drown in endless rebels instead which is no fun.

I expect it will be overhauled in 1.25 anyway along with the BI.

who chooses endless rebels? I thought everyone either avoided the region or their their capital there

 

[Rikissa]

Annexing the Netherlands can be annoying if they pop out in the HRE and you'd have to fight half of Europe and the Emperor

The absolute worst case is if you have that land under a PU, then you have to kill millions of rebels - I had a PU over Burgundy and it did not prevent the revolts in their lands

 

[jdavis86]

AFAIK only the Netherlands or Holland get the land reclamation event that gives Holland -20% development cost, or is it 25...

Anyway, otherwise the land is marsh.

 

[Badesumofu]

who chooses endless rebels? I thought everyone either avoided the region or their their capital there

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant people pick the option to get rebels over just giving up the land. After that, in future games, they culture convert or move capital.

Annexing the Netherlands can be annoying if they pop out in the HRE and you'd have to fight half of Europe and the Emperor

The absolute worst case is if you have that land under a PU, then you have to kill millions of rebels - I had a PU over Burgundy and it did not prevent the revolts in their lands

Interesting. I've put Burgundy under PU three times as France in recent patches. The Dutch revolts simply didn't happen.

 

[Viktor Vaughn]

yeah if you give dutch provinces to a subject burgundy or other dutch culture countries, no revolts happen

 

[Coffer]

Moving the capital saves you some trouble and the land is good. If I blob fast enough I just leave a stack there and kill them outright, but usually I'm not too bothered about moving. It's a nuisance, but then it's supposed to be one.

Reannexing them is more trouble than it's worth.

 

[Ironside121]

If you annex the netherlands, don't the revolts just pop up in your lands anyway? Or someone elses lands? Or can they only have a full independence once?

 

[Dakka]

It should be reworked as some kind of Reformation Age or Absolutism Age disaster rather than a bunch of random uprisings.

It honestly should be. I like this idea. You should post it in suggestions and tag me so I can follow

 

[Ninaran]

It breaks the game rules of unrest and rebels to a ridiculous degree and fires regardless of any circumstances. You can have Dutch as an accepted culture, be completely tolerant of the protestant faith and have not lowered autonomy ever, which were the main reasons for the real life revolts, and they still declare independence because reasons.

The amount of rebels that keep spawning are also ridiculous, you should be able to put it down, and not have to kill more rebels than there are people in France in the 17th century.

The triggers are stupid, the scale is stupid, the reason is stupid.
I'd rather have no Netherlands at all than having these events in the game.

 

[Coffer]

and they still declare independence because reasons.

I always just interpreted that as another classic example of Dutch nationalism. They are one of the most nationalistic people in human history, after all.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Hate the broken event, not so much NED itself. That said, it's not like moving your capital/home trade center into an end node that allows trade companies is a major setback if you're taking the land anyway...

 

[Dominion]

If you annex the netherlands, don't the revolts just pop up in your lands anyway? Or someone elses lands? Or can they only have a full independence once?

No. Nothing.

You annex them, they're gone, no more rebels.

 

[Vincentst]

I think there should be more prerequisites for the Dutch Revolt to happen. For example, if they have a center of reformation and their ruler is catholic or something like that. Now its a bit too random.

 

[tobias.mb]

I mostly dislike that event, because I don't see why the Netherlands should be treated any different than other conquered regions.
You can have control over the lowlands for centuries, accepted dutch culture and stomped out any religious differences in the area... you'll still get those revolts anyways.
Any other culture only gets (at most) a few seperatist rebels and avoiding those is really easy.

What makes the dutch so special? I'd really prefer a general "nationalist uprising" event, that can fire for everyone on any culture in the late-game.

 

[Ironside121]

No. Nothing.

You annex them, they're gone, no more rebels.

So letting them free and then re-annexing them is a viable strategy?

Well that's been a waste of a 50 stack for god knows how long..