Why do only Ottomans Get Elite Infantry

[otaats]

@Fluffy_Fishy i like your ideas around Fanti da Mar. Cannon units could be damn interesting to be a Venetian special unit of choice as well. Also, i didn't know that Venice used to conscript Dalmatians (mostly Croats i presume) into their regular army. That explains the increase of Catholic Croat community in Venetian Montenegro. By the way, being a Venetian expert and all, do you think there is room for a new province, namely Boche de Càtaro? It's not because my family hails from there, but i know for a fact how important the bay with the tight coastal town network is. There were so many of them, and the bay was a perfect hideout for large fleets, and a death trap to the invading ones. A lot of these towns were pirate havens where Serbian pirates operated against Neapolitan, Ragusan and Venetian ships, and i know for a fact that the bay was key to anyone on the far end of the Adriatic. I've got quite a few ideas about the region, and hopefully you will get to know about it sooner rather than later. It's an affair i am working on with a few other posters.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

@Fluffy_Fishy i like your ideas around Fanti da Mar. Cannon units could be damn interesting to be a Venetian special unit of choice as well. Also, i didn't know that Venice used to conscript Dalmatians (mostly Croats i presume) into their regular army. That explains the increase of Catholic Croat community in Venetian Montenegro. By the way, being a Venetian expert and all, do you think there is room for a new province, namely Boche de Càtaro? It's not because my family hails from there, but i know for a fact how important the bay with the tight coastal town network is. There were so many of them, and the bay was a perfect hideout for large fleets, and a death trap to the invading ones. A lot of these towns were pirate havens where Serbian pirates operated against Neapolitan, Ragusan and Venetian ships, and i know for a fact that the bay was key to anyone on the far end of the Adriatic. I've got quite a few ideas about the region, and hopefully you will get to know about it sooner rather than later. It's an affair i am working on with a few other posters.

Venice had 4 main sources of soldiers, they were all recruited slightly differently, Venice, Italy, Dalmatia and Greece. The Italians and Venetians were recruited with a roughly similar way, although more funding was made available to Venetians, with the Italian regiments being well financed too. Things get a bit more interesting when you look at the Greek and Dalmatians (including foreign volunteers) Dalmatians were generally paid poorly, having to bring their own weapons but were much less bound to legalities of looting, despite this they were generally quite well equipped thanks to the general warrior culture of the Balkan Slavic culture, these formed the vast majority of the irregular troops, mainly conscripts but also formed a backbone of light cavalry. Greeks were given limited funding, somewhat more than Dalmatians but they were most notably the ones who received the out of date equipment but they were supported quite well by heavier Venetian and Italian troops, they tended to be treated quite well and often given other perks like reduced price land rental for their service to the state.

The toughest troops tended to be the highly motivated and well equipped Venetian soldiers and the balkan slavs, mostly dalmatians whos culture and harsh life made them incredibly fierce on the battlefield, especially against the Ottomans who displaced their people, these poorly equipped men often outperformed the Italian regulars.

I'm not too sure about Cattaro in Vanilla, I very rarely play vanilla, but knowing that its got its own province in both VeF and M&T shows it should be, its also an incredibly important holding for Venice fought over on many occasions, especially once Dubrovnik becomes an Ottoman protectorate.

 

[otaats]

Venice really has an interesting history. I came across a lot of stuff in the bay linked to Venice. I bet you would have a hell of a time visiting the area, as Venice left a lot behind them.

I'm not too sure about Cattaro in Vanilla, I very rarely play vanilla, but knowing that its got its own province in both VeF and M&T shows it should be, its also an incredibly important holding for Venice fought over on many occasions, especially once Dubrovnik becomes an Ottoman protectorate.

Well, that was the whole point. But not only because Cattaro. Bay of Kotor covers a relatively small overall surface, but the place was of huge strategic importance, partly because there were several towns in very close proximity - etc. All of these towns were well fortified - especially Castelnuovo, which overlooked the entrance of the bay, and Cattaro, which was the trading center, deep inside the bay. Before the channel of Kotor, in the bottleneck area is a place called Verige - where the traps would be raised if the invading fleet would head towards Kotor.

As you pointed out, Cattaro with all it's sister towns, was a very important factor in Ragusa's trade sphere, often rivaling and hindering their trade prowess. Durazzo was a very important city in Venetian control, but i find the Bay of Kotor [Cattaro (Kotor), Herceg Novi (Castelnuovo), Perast (Perasto), Risan (Risano), Tivat (Teodo)] along with Montenegrin coastline towns [Budva (Budua), Bar (Antivari), Ulcinj (Dulcigno)] is way more important turf than the city of Durazzo, and having Durazzo lie there in vanilla just make me want this province even more. At this current state, the Montenegro area is underrepresented - indeed the inner Zeta (excluding the Venetian occupied coastline) was of little importance due to its hostile terrain, small towns and small population, but towns in Bay of Kotor were a complete contrast - they had huge cultural, commercial and military importance since time immemorial. Kotor was actually the main trading port of Serbia, even during the imperial era, and our rulers hired administrators from Kotor as their treasurers. The trading importance of this area should never be overlooked like that, and all these towns make this province a very viable one, so much as to give it a trade modifier. Dubrovnik is a 30 minute ride west of Herceg-Novi! Furthermore, the province doesn't have to be limited to just the area of the bay. Venice controlled the majority of Montenegro's coastline in 1444! The idiocy of Đurađ II Balšić selling possessions to Venice led to consequent straight up conquests of nearby towns. If you didn't read about it, First and Second Scutari War are a nice read!

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

@otaats I would really like to sail down the Adriatic coast at some point in my life, the whole area is stunnign and has such a fantastic history.

 

[Arinsar]

Okay maybe I misunderstood you little bit. But let me tell you what was Ottoman battle tactic (it was an old trick from Middle Asia and always worked. Seljuks and Ottomans used this against Europeans).

Turkish cavalries never charged enemies to break their lines. They were always light cavalry units and had more maneuverability against European heavy cavalries. So simply firstly they were attacking enemies and later playing that they lost and running from battlefield to make enemies attack Ottoman center where elite Janissaries deployed and later cavalries encircled enemy units and make them get into panic and fear to beat them.

So because of such tactics you can't find this: " Name any battles were Sipahis charge broke enemy lines"

if you search for "the wolf trap", "goose's wings", "The crescent tactic" or the "Turanian tactic" you can see how ottomans use cavalary in battlefield. this tactic is a variation of a battle stategy used by Turks and other Central Asian nomadic cavalry armies.Turks used this tactic succesfully against heavily armoured lancer cavalry formations of Europe from Manzikert(1071) all the way to gates of Vienna

I am not talking about tactics they have used, of course i knew turkish calvalry units werent shock troops. I was mainly talking about fact that no country came close to copy Winged Hussars (and few have tried in example Russia). One of the reason was Horses, western horses were big and able to carry huge load but at the same time slow and not able to charge over longer range. Selling hussar horse abroad was crime with capital punishment. Another reason were lances they were simply longer than any other lance or pikemen pike (hussars were able to pierce pikemens before they could reach the horse with their pike (there was special technique of making such long lances around 6 meter long by draining most of inside of the lance). Another thing is that training both hussar and horse took literally years (it was aproximetly 7 years for horse bot be able perform charge in the way hussars did and all the maneverus they were doing as formation). Polish hussars had experience fighting one of best infantry units of the era (swedish) and literally wrecking them (that included victory over one of best commanders of the era Gustav Adolpus. It was extremly deadly force in the hands of good commander who knew where and when to use them to get the job done, end of their glory days wasnt becouse of firearms or artilery but becouse of economic decline of Commonwealth after close to century of warfare with Russia, Sweden, Ottomans and Chmielnicki insurection. Polish cavalry had another moment of glory during napoleonic wars vide Battle of Somosierra and especially charge of polish cavalry.

 

[phunkracy]

The point being, Polish cavalry was great overall, no need to make special elite unit for Winged Hussars. They were a shock force, but Polish cavalry relied just as much on superior light cavalry, Pancerni, Reiters/Dragoons and later, Uhlans/Polish Lancers. If WH are made a unit then why stop there, you still have many distinguished fomations, particulary Guard Lancers.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

The point being, Polish cavalry was great overall, no need to make special elite unit for Winged Hussars. They were a shock force, but Polish cavalry relied just as much on superior light cavalry, Pancerni, Reiters/Dragoons and later, Uhlans/Polish Lancers. If WH are made a unit then why stop there, you still have many distinguished fomations, particulary Guard Lancers.

But that just kind of supports what I have already suggested which is more unit diversity, where nations would get a bonus in certain types of soldiery, not forcing but making it much more ideal to have specific make up of army composition.

 

[Arinsar]

The point being, Polish cavalry was great overall, no need to make special elite unit for Winged Hussars. They were a shock force, but Polish cavalry relied just as much on superior light cavalry, Pancerni, Reiters/Dragoons and later, Uhlans/Polish Lancers. If WH are made a unit then why stop there, you still have many distinguished fomations, particulary Guard Lancers.

Thing is that paradox is already going into that direction and in my opinion its good call since it adds more country specific flavour. Downside is that countries which already have those elite units will be simply better than those who dont (hence they should make complete DLC with that stuff).

 

[phunkracy]

Point is, winged hussars is worst possible choice for PLC's unique unit. A much better choice (and one that allows more unique gameplay) would be Cossacks, recruitable from Cossacks estate. Perhaps increasing Cossack influence, to the point of triggering "Cossack Uprising" disaster upon reaching 80%. But Winged Hussars? Nah. Redundant:/

 

[Arinsar]

Point is, winged hussars is worst possible choice for PLC's unique unit. A much better choice (and one that allows more unique gameplay) would be Cossacks, recruitable from Cossacks estate. Perhaps increasing Cossack influence, to the point of triggering "Cossack Uprising" disaster upon reaching 80%. But Winged Hussars? Nah. Redundant:/

Why does every of those units have to be tied with disaster ? Another thing is that Cossaks uprisings did not happen because they had to much influence (more like opposite). Not mentioning that Winged Hussars were most iconic soldiers of EU timeframe (second would be probably Lisowczycy - tho they existed for around 30 years only, they still managed to turn war on religion into 30 years war).

 

[phunkracy]

I'd say Cossacks had plenty of influence where they lived - in Ukrainian part of PLC.

Polish Winged Hussars were iconic, that's true. But that is already reflected by Polish (and Lithuanian) cavalry sprite being a Winged Hussar from Tier 1 up to Tier 3 and being an eastern unit type across several techs. Other than being iconic, there is no good explanation of them being unit on it's own. I'd recommend to read about Polish cavalry mid 1650s, books by Bellona in particular, or any book by Radoslaw Sikora. Other cavalry types (Wallachians, Pancerni/Cossacks, Rajtars, Dragoons, Arquebusiers) were just as essential and comparatively, just as exceptional compared to their peers.

 

[Ase Of SpADeZ]

I'm late but whatever.

Ottomans are op and get special stuff because they are designed to blob massively and fight the player.
Its a good thing because if they didn't then life after 1000 development would be boring af.

Honestly, i wish paradox took it one step further and made a button in options to make the ai super aggressive/bipolar and try to blob all over the place.

 

[holyvigil]

I'm late but whatever.

Ottomans are op and get special stuff because they are designed to blob massively and fight the player.
Its a good thing because if they didn't then life after 1000 development would be boring af.

Honestly, i wish paradox took it one step further and made a button in options to make the ai super aggressive/bipolar and try to blob all over the place.

I wouldn't mind if other people had that option. It would basically be choosing different patches which were all iron man at some point.