Why do only Ottomans Get Elite Infantry

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chrisisarea

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All armies were composed of different types of troops, that is no defence for the huge number of casualties taken in conflict, the majority of the Venetian army was irregulars and militia, it also doesn't defend the mediocre results the Janissary corps get when fighting other professional infantry... The peak of Janissary forces was also just under 70,000 at the end of the Great Turkish War, not 30,000, something that didn't help the Ottoman forces fend off other professional infantry from nations like Austria... Simply put as I keep having to repeat, the Janissaries were just professional infantry, with a handful of elite troops within the corps.
.

Eh? ... " Fake News/Facts " i would call. I dont know if you ever read actually books over the ottomans at all or if you have your knowledge just from Wiki as its very common nowdays. May you want some good sources of history books, where you can get some correct numbers and Facts.
For now, i just leave it this way, argue with you seems pointless ( when i read all your answers you gave in that thread )
 

Fluffy_Fishy

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Janissaries have their "uniqueness" status because the way they were recruited and trained. EXACTLY(hiperbole, in fact it was just similar) equal to, surprise yourself, MAMLUKS!
Yes! This is a common thing in Muslim Middle East since XII century. By the way, for some time, the Mamluk Sultanate was ruled by Georgians and another time by Armenians Mamluks! Why Janissaries became more iconic in history than Mamluks? Simple. Mamluks never conquered parts of Europe, invaded Constantinople, etc. After all, who cares about Georgia/Armenia/Middle East, right?

Oh, the Janissaries also were the first troops to use firearms in Europe. And that is it. They were just a big standing army. Not much "standing", as most of time they were merchants in peace-time and, after some time, land-owners themselves. Basically a normal noble, that does his own thing at peace-time, answering the Call to Arms from his overlord, except their overlord is the Sultan himself. It is completely different of the concept of standing armies, as you can read below.

About their performance, it is complicated. They were never used as sole entity, but the Ottoman Army, in general, was AWFUL at combat, losing uncountable times to much smaller armies and garrisons, namely in Armenia, Georgia, Albania, Greece, Hungary or any place they tried to invade. There is more merit to Portugal in the fall of the Mameluke Sultanate than to the Ottoman Army, that got rekt by the same Sultanate in the first war and just didn't lost land because the Mamluks had problems supplying a big army so far from home.

The Ottoman navy, however, was pretty good and had easy time in the first and second war against Mamluks and could keep Christians at bay. They had professional board teams, that had this sole purpose in the fleet. The size was like 30,000 at Lepanto, if I'm remembering correctly. ZERO bonuses to Ottoman navy in game.

Ottoman bureaucracy and logistics, however, is where the roots of the empire are. The empire could gather much more taxes, raise and supply a much larger army than the Christians it had to face. Even fighting some Crusades/Coalitions, the Ottoman Empire had a bigger army and navy than the whole enemy team. Doubt? Ottomans had more ships at Lepanto. Against the banks of Spain, Genoa, Venice and the Fugger Banks. After the loss the navy was never the same.

If this game tried to follow some historical approach, the Ottoman Empire should be like the old Russia:
++ Manpower
+ Force Limits
- Regiment Costs
New Janissaries

The Janissaries were the ONE of elites in the Ottoman army, but isn't hard to be the elite when the rest of the army is purely militia. It does make them be seen as better, but doesn't made them better.

I would end, but a question needs to be made: If most of European armies were like Generals + Nobles + Mercenaries + tons of militia, considering militia is militia anywhere and the Ottoman had much more, the Europeans needed to be much better in something else to compensate and win.

Were European mercenaries better? If, so, they should be used to a more advanced kind of warfare. If Janissaries were used to an outdated warfare, they weren't such a threat.
Were European noble/elite forces better? That is a directly confront, so I don't need to extend here.
Were European generals better? Check two lines above.

I have no problem with the Janissaries having their own way of recruitment, it is good, the issue is far more with the 10% less damage, there is seriously no reason for that its just a bunch nonsense to pretend they are better. I fully agree with your claims about the Ottoman army, they were poorly trained poorly equipped forces that just won through sheer numbers.

The Ottoman navy however was by no means good, it is historically one of if not the worst performing navy of all time. They were able to field a large number of ships but those ships were most often greenwood made and generally constructed by slave labourers. Ottoman naval tech was quite notably behind that of the Europeans, they were poor seamen, despite their huge coastline. They did have some brief success under Barbarossa but apart from this they repeatedly lost battles. They certainly don't deserve any bonuses to their naval game play, they get the coastline and sailor supply already.

My understanding of Europe vs Ottomans is that European Mercenaries were generally the best in the world, although this is mainly due to military innovations and technology. European Elite forces are generally higher quality than Janissaries, although the question would change should you change that to the most elite positions within the Janissaries, where they become fairly even, as I have said multiple times on this thread Janissaries are professionals, fighting around the same competence level as other professionals, but with maybe a tiny bit more discipline, although they were also forced to work with inferior technology.

The Generals question is a lot more difficult to answer, generally the Christians fought with more fractured forces, whilst the Ottomans fought more as a single army, the somewhat political game of European generals in coalition forces meant squabbles over plans and tactics compared to a more unified Ottoman army. Its also notable that I would consider the Ottomans got a lot better at fighting Europeans than the Europeans got at fighting Ottomans, at least for the initial engagements.

Eh? ... " Fake News/Facts " i would call. I dont know if you ever read actually books over the ottomans at all or if you have your knowledge just from Wiki as its very common nowdays. May you want some good sources of history books, where you can get some correct numbers and Facts.
For now, i just leave it this way, argue with you seems pointless ( when i read all your answers you gave in that thread )

So you are saying Professor Gabor Agoston of Georgetown university and his paper discussing the numbers I referenced is a poor source? Here it is if you want a read....
http://www.academia.edu/7869585/Fir...nd_the_European_Military_Revolution_1450_1800
 

makaramus

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I have no problem with the Janissaries having their own way of recruitment, it is good, the issue is far more with the 10% less damage, there is seriously no reason for that its just a bunch nonsense to pretend they are better. I fully agree with your claims about the Ottoman army, they were poorly trained poorly equipped forces that just won through sheer numbers.

The Ottoman navy however was by no means good, it is historically one of if not the worst performing navy of all time. They were able to field a large number of ships but those ships were most often greenwood made and generally constructed by slave labourers. Ottoman naval tech was quite notably behind that of the Europeans, they were poor seamen, despite their huge coastline. They did have some brief success under Barbarossa but apart from this they repeatedly lost battles. They certainly don't deserve any bonuses to their naval game play, they get the coastline and sailor supply already.

My understanding of Europe vs Ottomans is that European Mercenaries were generally the best in the world, although this is mainly due to military innovations and technology. European Elite forces are generally higher quality than Janissaries, although the question would change should you change that to the most elite positions within the Janissaries, where they become fairly even, as I have said multiple times on this thread Janissaries are professionals, fighting around the same competence level as other professionals, but with maybe a tiny bit more discipline, although they were also forced to work with inferior technology.

The Generals question is a lot more difficult to answer, generally the Christians fought with more fractured forces, whilst the Ottomans fought more as a single army, the somewhat political game of European generals in coalition forces meant squabbles over plans and tactics compared to a more unified Ottoman army. Its also notable that I would consider the Ottomans got a lot better at fighting Europeans than the Europeans got at fighting Ottomans, at least for the initial engagements.



So you are saying Professor Gabor Agoston of Georgetown university and his paper discussing the numbers I referenced is a poor source? Here it is if you want a read....
http://www.academia.edu/7869585/Fir...nd_the_European_Military_Revolution_1450_1800

last time I checked pope called a "naval crusade"(Well... its what I named XD) to destroy navy of ottoman :D
I mean no doubt their ships was terrible but sometimes quantity can destroy who prefer quality :)

I think reason of %10 less damage taken coming from not equipment but from being professional...

Also I think paradox wanted them to die less so their numbers become more easier and trigger disaster(wich makes sense... it would be more op if they dealt more dmg but now risk of disaster is higher)

but I must refuse: Ottoman navy was feared in europe! Sure not a spanish or english navy but still it was powerfull one (Quantity wise)
 

Fluffy_Fishy

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last time I checked pope called a "naval crusade"(Well... its what I named XD) to destroy navy of ottoman :D
I mean no doubt their ships was terrible but sometimes quantity can destroy who prefer quality :)

I think reason of %10 less damage taken coming from not equipment but from being professional...

Also I think paradox wanted them to die less so their numbers become more easier and trigger disaster(wich makes sense... it would be more op if they dealt more dmg but now risk of disaster is higher)

And there we have the the problem I find so bizarre, it's that they and only they get access to professionals i wouldnt have a problem if they either didnt get the bonus, and they were balanced in other ways or other nations got some way to recruit other generic style professional armies similarly balanced. All this while keeping the interesting mechanics for their recruitment.

but I must refuse: Ottoman navy was feared in europe! Sure not a spanish or english navy but still it was powerfull one (Quantity wise)

The issue of how bad the ottoman navy was is the reason it got so menacing in the first place, the ottomans having lost a string of battles despite overwhelming numbers Christian fleets got lazy Venice considered every ottoman ship worth half that of a Venetian made similar size vessel, other Christians took this lead too that the Ottomans were so bad at sea they could be basically ignored, so the ottomans basically built themselves a huge fleet pretty much unchallenged. This huge fleet suffered from poor leadership and seamanship, lack of technological advances, toughness or longevity. It did make up for this similarly to ottoman land forces in sheer numbers, the thin flimsy construction also meant it was faster than typical Christian fleets so could always use that to it's advantage, saying that Venetian ships were still faster and had the advantage of being fast due to mathematical and technological progressions rather than just general barebones construction :)
 

grand_Turk

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The Ottoman navy however was by no means good, it is historically one of if not the worst performing navy of all time...Ottoman naval tech was quite notably behind that of the Europeans, they were poor seamen, despite their huge coastline. They did have some brief success under Barbarossa but apart from this they repeatedly lost battles. They certainly don't deserve any bonuses to their naval game play, they get the coastline and sailor supply already...
I would reconsider these remarks. There are many examples in history that will refute your claims.
 

Palatinus Germanicus

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Did the Ottomans have a bigger navy than the entire rest of Europe combined, IRL?

Even the modern US Navy couldn't beat the EU4 Ottomans in the Mediterranean. There wouldn't be enough guided missiles, or even conventional ammunition.
 

Palatinus Germanicus

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B

British navy rules in this game, I am not sure how people are struggling against Ottomans this much lol.

I'm not seeing it. EU3? I would concur with you. But in this game, the Brits tend to get sunk, and stay sunk. Maybe rebuild a mediocre squadron... which will get sunk again, in the next war.

Meanwhile, the Ottomans are sporting 125+ War Galleys, 3-dozen heavies, plus lots of transports & light ships. Anyone that enters the Med at war with them, is never seen again.

The original Bermuda Triangle.


"The Venetian Arsenal." Pah. The weather and sea conditions are more of a concern.
 

Ostovar Hossein

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And there we have the the problem I find so bizarre, it's that they and only they get access to professionals i wouldnt have a problem if they either didnt get the bonus, and they were balanced in other ways or other nations got some way to recruit other generic style professional armies similarly balanced. All this while keeping the interesting mechanics for their recruitment.



The issue of how bad the ottoman navy was is the reason it got so menacing in the first place, the ottomans having lost a string of battles despite overwhelming numbers Christian fleets got lazy Venice considered every ottoman ship worth half that of a Venetian made similar size vessel, other Christians took this lead too that the Ottomans were so bad at sea they could be basically ignored, so the ottomans basically built themselves a huge fleet pretty much unchallenged. This huge fleet suffered from poor leadership and seamanship, lack of technological advances, toughness or longevity. It did make up for this similarly to ottoman land forces in sheer numbers, the thin flimsy construction also meant it was faster than typical Christian fleets so could always use that to it's advantage, saying that Venetian ships were still faster and had the advantage of being fast due to mathematical and technological progressions rather than just general barebones construction :)
Let's put it in simpler words, Ottomans took Venetian land when Venetian were getting help from the rest of Europe. Ottomans>Venetian. Simple isn't? I always am woundering about what would of happened if half of Europe didn't March against Ottomans Everytime they tried to take something from Europe. I mean we all know Vienna was just matter of time until Poland came to help.
 

Ostovar Hossein

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I'm not seeing it. EU3? I would concur with you. But in this game, the Brits tend to get sunk, and stay sunk. Maybe rebuild a mediocre squadron... which will get sunk again, in the next war.

Meanwhile, the Ottomans are sporting 125+ War Galleys, 3-dozen heavies, plus lots of transports & light ships. Anyone that enters the Med at war with them, is never seen again.

The original Bermuda Triangle.


"The Venetian Arsenal." Pah. The weather and sea conditions are more of a concern.
I mean for that you need to blame AI... in the hands of veteran player British navy is force of nature.
 

Fluffy_Fishy

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I would reconsider these remarks. There are many examples in history that will refute your claims.

Why would I reconsider them? The Ottomans lost almost continually to Italians, Spaniards, The French, The English and Russians. For the amount of money and try hard plays they made to try and control the water they never achieved it. Ottoman ships and cannons were simply poor quality and they brute forced their way to successes at huge manpower costs.

Let's put it in simpler words, Ottomans took Venetian land when Venetian were getting help from the rest of Europe. Ottomans>Venetian. Simple isn't? I always am woundering about what would of happened if half of Europe didn't March against Ottomans Everytime they tried to take something from Europe. I mean we all know Vienna was just matter of time until Poland came to help.

This is actually such a horrible and poor quality summery of what happened. The Ottomans scraped some really quite phyrric victories against a much smaller neutral nation like I pointed out earlier it cost them well over half a million lives for mostly minor gains that didn't even offer them any real advantage.

It's really quite fitting as a display of ottoman lacklustre power that they couldn't bully a city state despite huge manpower and wealth advantages. Despite the huge advantages the ottoman military had Venice outgunned the turks almost every step of the way, which is part of the reason why the drawn out conflicts between the ottomans and Venetians took so long.

Also half of Europe didn't march against the ottomans every time the ottomans moved, they just made too many enemies through their expansionism, England, France and the Netherlands still traded openly with the ottomans even in military resources during the great Turkish war.
 
Last edited:

grand_Turk

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>grand_Turk
Hmm... I wonder what the motivation behind this claim might be? Anyway, would you care to provide any of these many examples?
Sure;
Claim 1- "The Ottoman navy however was by no means good, it is historically one of if not the worst performing navy of all time..."
Answer: "The worst performing navy of all time" was clearly an irrational exaggeration. Despite being outnumbered on many occassions, this "worst" navy defeated many formidable fleets of Europe in 15th and 16th century. 1499-1503 Venetian-Ottoman war, 1538 Preveza, 1560 Djerba, 1578 Battle of Three Kings were among the examples. Not that bad, isn't it?

Claim 2- "Ottoman naval tech was quite notably behind that of the Europeans, they were poor seamen, despite their huge coastline..."
Answer: On the contrary, the key to success of Ottoman navies against the combined navies of european powers was the Ottomans' ability to implement their advanced gun and cannon technologies on their fleets and high maneuverability of relatively smaller ships as seen in Preveza and in other major battles. As for the seamanship, the Ottoman naval leadership raised many famous admirals and captains throughout centuries. To name a few, Kemal Reis, Burak Reis, Piri Reis, Turgut Reis, Kilic Ali Reis, Salih Reis, Ghazi Hasan Pasha of Algiers, Piyale Pasha, Oruç Reis, Mezzo Morto Huseyin Pasha, Seydi Ali Reis, and the list goes on. Fortunately, the Ottomans had weak seamanship to raise such brilliant seamen, otherwise would have been a greater disaster for christian fleets in mediterranean. lol

Claim 3- "They did have some brief success under Barbarossa but apart from this they repeatedly lost battles. They certainly don't deserve any bonuses to their naval game play, they get the coastline and sailor supply already..."
Answer: Barbarossa was the admiral of Ottoman navy between 1533 and 1546. The Ottoman fleet won many naval battles out of this time interval as well. This claim that they repeatedly lost battles doesn't reflect the reality at all. Another important point is about the Ottomans' naval capacity. After substantially losing their fleet in the battle of Lepanto, they built a navy of 200 ships in shipyards across the empire just in six months, forcing Venice to sign another costly peace treaty. Another example is the Ottoman Navy was the third greatest navy of Europe after Britain and France in mid 19th century. So, the Ottomans were not that bad in naval matters as this one unsuccesfully tries to convey it.

So, it's pretty obvious that there's no good intention in motivation behind these claims. Period.

Why would I reconsider them? The Ottomans lost almost continually to Italians, Spaniards, The French, The English and Russians. For the amount of money and try hard plays they made to try and control the water they never achieved it. Ottoman ships and cannons were simply poor quality and they brute forced their way to successes at huge manpower costs.
Your unwarranted claims and biased comments don't deserve a proper answer though...
 

fksahin

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I just wonder if really Ottoman soldiers (both Navy and Land) were really so poor and had no technical equality against Europe and other bullsh.t claims said by some people here, how could they manage to conquer so large lands and could keep under their control until the beginning of 20th century? And always they faced to fight against more than one enemy country. There is no just one single enemy battles they fought. So surprising that they could win so many wars with worst, poor equipped, poorly fighting, poorly trained and green combat soldiers.
 

Ostovar Hossein

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I just wonder if really Ottoman soldiers (both Navy and Land) were really so poor and had no technical equality against Europe and other bullsh.t claims said by some people here, how could they manage to conquer so large lands and could keep under their control until the beginning of 20th century? And always they faced to fight against more than one enemy country. There is no just one single enemy battles they fought. So surprising that they could win so many wars with worst, poor equipped, poorly fighting, poorly trained and green combat soldiers.
I am also baffled by this hate... I guess eurocentric mind are at work here... It is most interesting to see people making a thread claiming only Ottomans have so called elite units which was big nerf to Ottomans, while no one said a thing when Russia got their elite units lol. Just funny to read between the lines.
 

holyvigil

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I am also baffled by this hate... I guess eurocentric mind are at work here... It is most interesting to see people making a thread claiming only Ottomans have so called elite units which was big nerf to Ottomans, while no one said a thing when Russia got their elite units lol. Just funny to read between the lines.

Racism, hatred, bigotry towards The Ottomans but not any Europeans. Especially not the Russians... Right....

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ng-russia-to-over-9000.1026895/#post-22909643
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/muscovy-in-1-22.1038659/#post-23152585
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...t-killed-the-good-idea.1038068/#post-23139808
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-being-prussia-can-stop-the-russians.1037165/
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ssion-government-types.1034238/#post-23052697

Do a quick search before you throw the prejudice hammer around. This is only from a couple pages of a search I did.
 
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Ostovar Hossein

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Fluffy_Fishy

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Sure;
Claim 1- "The Ottoman navy however was by no means good, it is historically one of if not the worst performing navy of all time..."
Answer: "The worst performing navy of all time" was clearly an irrational exaggeration. Despite being outnumbered on many occassions, this "worst" navy defeated many formidable fleets of Europe in 15th and 16th century. 1499-1503 Venetian-Ottoman war, 1538 Preveza, 1560 Djerba, 1578 Battle of Three Kings were among the examples. Not that bad, isn't it?

Claim 2- "Ottoman naval tech was quite notably behind that of the Europeans, they were poor seamen, despite their huge coastline..."
Answer: On the contrary, the key to success of Ottoman navies against the combined navies of european powers was the Ottomans' ability to implement their advanced gun and cannon technologies on their fleets and high maneuverability of relatively smaller ships as seen in Preveza and in other major battles. As for the seamanship, the Ottoman naval leadership raised many famous admirals and captains throughout centuries. To name a few, Kemal Reis, Burak Reis, Piri Reis, Turgut Reis, Kilic Ali Reis, Salih Reis, Ghazi Hasan Pasha of Algiers, Piyale Pasha, Oruç Reis, Mezzo Morto Huseyin Pasha, Seydi Ali Reis, and the list goes on. Fortunately, the Ottomans had weak seamanship to raise such brilliant seamen, otherwise would have been a greater disaster for christian fleets in mediterranean. lol

Claim 3- "They did have some brief success under Barbarossa but apart from this they repeatedly lost battles. They certainly don't deserve any bonuses to their naval game play, they get the coastline and sailor supply already..."
Answer: Barbarossa was the admiral of Ottoman navy between 1533 and 1546. The Ottoman fleet won many naval battles out of this time interval as well. This claim that they repeatedly lost battles doesn't reflect the reality at all. Another important point is about the Ottomans' naval capacity. After substantially losing their fleet in the battle of Lepanto, they built a navy of 200 ships in shipyards across the empire just in six months, forcing Venice to sign another costly peace treaty. Another example is the Ottoman Navy was the third greatest navy of Europe after Britain and France in mid 19th century. So, the Ottomans were not that bad in naval matters as this one unsuccesfully tries to convey it.

So, it's pretty obvious that there's no good intention in motivation behind these claims. Period.

Your unwarranted claims and biased comments don't deserve a proper answer though...

Answer 1: Venetian loss in the 2nd Ottoman Venetian war was more towards poor leadership than Ottoman success, this is already covered by my previous statement over Venetians not taking the Ottomans seriously enough. Preveza is covered by Barbarossa, who is notable for standing out for his multiple victories. Djerba is fair enough but the Battle of Three kings was a land fight? Where are their significant crushing victories? The Vast majority of Ottoman naval successes in battle are small conflicts that wouldn't even be called battles to other nations, they would just be known as actions. Even at Djerba and Prevaza there results were decisive rather than crushing. The Barbary states on the other hand were a far more significant menace, bizarrely they were much better at naval production too, although on a much smaller scale.

Answer 2: Ottoman cannons were certainly not superior, the peak of technology for guns and gunpowder was very much Europe, with the cannons themselves being most notably superior in southern Germany and Venice, whilst France was developing the best application thanks to the move to lower poundage and development of more advanced carriages, while England was growing an increasing expertise in iron guns. By the mid 16th century the majority of Ottoman guns were seriously substandard, mostly at this point they were made out of recast English church bells from the Anglican reformation which made for poor artillery, the hundreds of guns captured at Lepanto weren't even considered worth recasting by Venetian standards and were briefly studied then melted down and sold on the civilian market. Having smaller more nimble ships isn't a sign of technology, its a note towards naval doctrine. Having a number of well known admirals doesn't equate to having good seamanship.

Answer 3: The almost continuous loss of battles does string along Turkish history no matter whether you like it or not, its not a matter of opinion. Going onto the point about rebuilding the Ottoman navy, the navy was plastic, the ships were poorly made, even by Ottoman standards they were hastily stumbled together, the 200 over 6 months is also kind of awkward considering the huge coastline of the Ottomans in the 1570s, covering about half the Mediterranean basin. To put some comparison there, The Venetian Arsenal could outperform this on its own, able to produce more than a ship a day. Its also notable despite having this huge replacement navy and the Christian fleet being somewhat patched up from Lepanto, the Ottoman fleet refused to fight an engagement, despite significant numerical superiority. You can't really make a big thing about 19th century Ottoman navy either, they got wrecked by Russia in 3 major battles, Russia being a fairly backwards navy itself.

Sadly, they aren't just claims, they aren't racism or Eurocentricsm, they are just what happened....

I just wonder if really Ottoman soldiers (both Navy and Land) were really so poor and had no technical equality against Europe and other bullsh.t claims said by some people here, how could they manage to conquer so large lands and could keep under their control until the beginning of 20th century? And always they faced to fight against more than one enemy country. There is no just one single enemy battles they fought. So surprising that they could win so many wars with worst, poor equipped, poorly fighting, poorly trained and green combat soldiers.

A similar way the Russians won at Stalingrad... They were far more prepared to expend lives, they also conveniently sucked up the power vacuum created by the implosion of the Byzantines and Mamluks.

I am also baffled by this hate... I guess eurocentric mind are at work here... It is most interesting to see people making a thread claiming only Ottomans have so called elite units which was big nerf to Ottomans, while no one said a thing when Russia got their elite units lol. Just funny to read between the lines.

There is no hate for the Ottomans here... They are a fascinating study point, sadly there are is a huge amount of poor information going, mainly looking at their ability to create gunpowder weapons and the combat effectiveness of the Janissaries, their social and political background is fascinating.
 

Palatinus Germanicus

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To the (presumably) Turkish people who are thinking about getting defensive... there is no hate. Don't take any of it personally. There's just this prevailing consensus that the Ottomans are overpowered, in the game.

I was well-adjusted to the level of Ottoman power (game balance) that existed in EU3 -- which I believe was much more historical. Then about a year ago, I started playing EU4. It was pretty clear from the onset, that a game-design decision had been made, to make the Ottomans MUCH more powerful. My initial response was, "OK, so that's how it is." Everybody knows the Ottomans are overpowered. The question is; do we really like the game being balanced like that? Is it a 'fun challenge', that's fine -- as is? Or should be put things back into a more historical perspective.

The Ottomans built a great empire, but it wasn't so easy. If the real Sultans had access to this kind of power, they would've conquered everything (everything they wanted to, at least).