Why do only Ottomans Get Elite Infantry

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Ishmael_Dandalo

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Don't bring Dandolo into this.

Someone call me?


Also, they SHOULD add the Venetian Fanti da Mar (or Arsenalotti)! They could have similar bonuses to the Janissaries, but their downside could be that they're drawn from the sailor pool and increase sailor upkeep, like substantially, so that you need invest fairly heavily in naval and sailor infrastructure to support a large number of them.
 
Last edited:

chrisisarea

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Looking more seriously at the conflicts I am most comfortable looking at the Venetian Ottoman wars, where over the many years the Ottomans took about 8 casualties for every 1 Venetian, losing about 600,000 men compared to about 75,000 Venetians.


well you have to consider, the ottomans army was not 100 % ranked by janissary. There are many sources of numbers and they vary a lot. In general the ottoman army was mostly cavalry , appr. 80 % of the standing army. The janissary was always a elite group of fighters , which increased over time. Still the main numbers of footsoldiers of the ottomans was casual levies. 1638 , was the " high time " of the janissary , where the sources match closest to existing 25.000 - 30.000 standing janissary. Considering the numbers in charge of the 2nd siege of Vienna for example, the ottomans army was appr. 100.000 man strong.

If you take this into account, the janissary was definitely a strong elite force but they never went first into combat or fought all time alone against enemy armies
 

raikaria

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While the DD is largely being seen as
a nerf for the Ottomans, it seems a bit strange that only the Ottomans will be able to get hold of elite units despite them being unavailable to other nations.

Janissaries in themselves were not particularly better than any other professional infantry, while they were pretty well drilled they had no particular advantage over other full time European soldiers, this is very apparent in both the Venetian Ottoman wars and the Habsburg Ottoman wars, where the typical Venetian Marines that formed the backbone of their army were considered slightly superior to the Janissaries. My understanding is also that the Austrian professional troops were at least as good as the elite Turks too.

Why is it that Janissaries get to be represented over any other special unit? They are more special politically than militarily, on the battlefield they were less comparatively effective when drawn up between other high end infantry such as napoleon's old guard.

Looking more seriously at the conflicts I am most comfortable looking at the Venetian Ottoman wars, where over the many years the Ottomans took about 8 casualties for every 1 Venetian, losing about 600,000 men compared to about 75,000 Venetians, this despite the influence of the supposedly powerful Janissary troops. Realistically the most important military presence in the conflict was the gaping technological advantage Venice had at Artillery production over the rest of the world, not the much exaggerated performance of Janissary troops.

Will we soon see more nations able to get hold of high end units or will it remain closed off as an Ottoman only thing?

You realize these Janissaries; which basically require the Ottomans to keep Heathen land around instead of converting it [Which means the land is less effective]; are still a nerf to the Ottomans; right?

The current 'Jannisaries' modifier is gone. That was just a flat buff to the entire Ottoman army.

And yes; the Janissaries were the Ottoman's Elite soldiers. They were basically the personal guard and soldiers of the Sultan himself; literally raised to be elite soldiers from childhood.
 
Last edited:

Fluffy_Fishy

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Someone call me?


Also, they SHOULD add the Venetian Fanti da Mar (or Arsenalotti)! They could have similar bonuses to the Janissaries, but their downside could be that they're drawn from the sailor pool and increase sailor upkeep, like substantially, so that you need invest fairly heavily in naval and sailor infrastructure to support a large number of them.

Makes far more sense to put in the Fanti da mar or Bombardieri, with Fanti da Mar only being recruitable in Venice proper not anywhere else but not from the sailor pool. The Arsenalotti isn't even a proper thing, its a colloquialism for the palace guards, people just seem to pretend they are this high and mighty force but they are just a very well equipped militia force manned by men who were considered worth rewarding for their service as guards for the Arsenal facilities.

well you have to consider, the ottomans army was not 100 % ranked by janissary. There are many sources of numbers and they vary a lot. In general the ottoman army was mostly cavalry , appr. 80 % of the standing army. The janissary was always a elite group of fighters , which increased over time. Still the main numbers of footsoldiers of the ottomans was casual levies. 1638 , was the " high time " of the janissary , where the sources match closest to existing 25.000 - 30.000 standing janissary. Considering the numbers in charge of the 2nd siege of Vienna for example, the ottomans army was appr. 100.000 man strong.

If you take this into account, the janissary was definitely a strong elite force but they never went first into combat or fought all time alone against enemy armies

All armies were composed of different types of troops, that is no defence for the huge number of casualties taken in conflict, the majority of the Venetian army was irregulars and militia, it also doesn't defend the mediocre results the Janissary corps get when fighting other professional infantry... The peak of Janissary forces was also just under 70,000 at the end of the Great Turkish War, not 30,000, something that didn't help the Ottoman forces fend off other professional infantry from nations like Austria... Simply put as I keep having to repeat, the Janissaries were just professional infantry, with a handful of elite troops within the corps.

You realize these Janissaries; which basically require the Ottomans to keep Heathen land around instead of converting it [Which means the land is less effective]; are still a nerf to the Ottomans; right?

The current 'Jannisaries' modifier is gone. That was just a flat buff to the entire Ottoman army.

And yes; the Janissaries were the Ottoman's Elite soldiers. They were basically the personal guard and soldiers of the Sultan himself; literally raised to be elite soldiers from childhood.

At no point am I debating it being a nerf, its just really bizarre that the Ottomans get access to more powerful infantry that was no better than other professional soldiers, forcing the Ottomans to play more historically to their social constraints is good for them, it just frustrates me only they get access to higher tier infantry. However, Ottomans didn't so much kidnap children, they usually asked nicely, with parents obliging because the eunuchs of the Ottomans and their life in soldiery or bureaucracy would give them a lot more opportunities in life than being a poor village christian, kidnappings were very rare.
 

Emoneh

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It would be cool if every country got access to a limited number of "Royal Guard" or similarly named generic elite regiment that had, for example, permanent 100 drill. Sending in the crack troops is great for RP and I think it would make wartime strategy more interesting as well.
 

Ishmael_Dandalo

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Makes far more sense to put in the Fanti da mar or Bombardieri, with Fanti da Mar only being recruitable in Venice proper not anywhere else but not from the sailor pool. The Arsenalotti isn't even a proper thing, its a colloquialism for the palace guards, people just seem to pretend they are this high and mighty force but they are just a very well equipped militia force manned by men who were considered worth rewarding for their service as guards for the Arsenal facilities.

I may have been being a tad cheeky suggesting the Arsenalotti. My apologies. From what I've read, doing so would be akin to how Rome: Total War has the Praetorian Guard as the elite units for the Roman factions. And were the Fanti da mar strictly Venetian citizens? I'd be interested in your source (like seriously, I'm not being sarcastic, do you have a good book or something on this?).

-

On the other hand, I think I understand what you're saying with it not being fair/represenative that the elite units aren't present in other nations since they also had them. At what point, however, do you get power creep from giving the majority of nations access to unique/elite troops?
 

Fluffy_Fishy

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Can you please name all these countries that had professional soldiers that didn't come to just encompass the entire army?

What are you even saying? Nearly every nation in every era in history had a military with a general core of professional soldiers surrounded by much more flimsy less experienced and equipped supporting troops. Janissaries are just the professional part of the Ottomans....

I may have been being a tad cheeky suggesting the Arsenalotti. My apologies. From what I've read, doing so would be akin to how Rome: Total War has the Praetorian Guard as the elite units for the Roman factions. And were the Fanti da mar strictly Venetian citizens? I'd be interested in your source (like seriously, I'm not being sarcastic, do you have a good book or something on this?).

--------------​

On the other hand, I think I understand what you're saying with it not being fair/represenative that the elite units aren't present in other nations since they also had them. At what point, however, do you get power creep from giving the majority of nations access to unique/elite troops?

The "Arsenalotti", probably more appropriately known as Guardia di Palazzo or Guardia di San Marco do have a lot of similarities with the Praetorians. They had the best and most flashy equipment available to the state, which for the majority of their existence is some of the best examples of armament around. They were drawn from the Arsenal Guard, whos sole purpose was keeping the facilities of the Arsenal safe and secret, they themselves were basically a superior militia, while the Palace guards were the cream of the Arsenal guard, so they are basically the glorified end of the glorified end of the militia.

The Fanti da Mar, weren't exclusively from the city itself but they were recruited there, Venice raised forces slightly differently throughout its lands, it wanted different things and gave different investment to each area, where the commune itself got the best investment, followed by the Italian lands, while the least money went into the Balkan, Greek and Sea possessions. The Fanti da Mar were required to be extremely comfortable with amphibious warfare, and any non Venetian recruits had to keep up with the Venetians who had a lifetime of experience around water which made it difficult for anyone else to join.

The best books I have on the subject are:
"Peasants and Soldiers: The Management of the Venetian Military Structure in the Mainland Dominion Between the 16th and 17th Centuries" by Giulio Ongaro
and
"Military Organisation Renaissance: Venice C. 1400 to 1617" by Mallett and Hale

The Venetian core amphibious infantry are pretty fascinating although I personally find the Venetian artillery and artillerymen more interesting, the quality of both the equipment and soldiers in the artillery regiments are jaw droppingly forward thinking, while I will avoid the subject of the guns themselves for now (PM me if you want to know a bit more), the intake and training was staggering, even before you began the initial training you had to pass some very difficult examinations in mathematics and ballistics with a small amount of minor chemistry thrown in for the fun of it. Then once you had achieved that you got to actually start practical training, which also had strict guidelines for how effective a gunner could work in terms of accuracy, speed and teamwork, this is only the standard man too, the officers had even tougher versions of training to get through, it was far more intensive than the other cannon heavy nations of Europe such as England Spain and the South HRE.

-----------​

I don't see a power creep happening, it would just be nice to see some degree of being able to recruit more differentiating units, you could quite nicely breakdown military organisation into sub categories along all kinds of segments, such as light, heavy, regular, irregular, professional, conscripted, elite. I just get so fed up of every unit being equal, its so bland and doesnt reflect the really quite diverse differentiating military doctrine from all over the world with regards to playing to each nations strength.

The huge stacks of same things are so immersion breaking, as is the massive overpopulation of artillery on the back line, I just want to see more flavourful conflict for everyone, not just the Turks, I like the new mechanics, just not the one nation availability for high end troops.
 

Ishmael_Dandalo

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The "Arsenalotti", probably more appropriately known as Guardia di Palazzo or Guardia di San Marco do have a lot of similarities with the Praetorians. They had the best and most flashy equipment available to the state, which for the majority of their existence is some of the best examples of armament around. They were drawn from the Arsenal Guard, whos sole purpose was keeping the facilities of the Arsenal safe and secret, they themselves were basically a superior militia, while the Palace guards were the cream of the Arsenal guard, so they are basically the glorified end of the glorified end of the militia.

The Fanti da Mar, weren't exclusively from the city itself but they were recruited there, Venice raised forces slightly differently throughout its lands, it wanted different things and gave different investment to each area, where the commune itself got the best investment, followed by the Italian lands, while the least money went into the Balkan, Greek and Sea possessions. The Fanti da Mar were required to be extremely comfortable with amphibious warfare, and any non Venetian recruits had to keep up with the Venetians who had a lifetime of experience around water which made it difficult for anyone else to join.

The best books I have on the subject are:
"Peasants and Soldiers: The Management of the Venetian Military Structure in the Mainland Dominion Between the 16th and 17th Centuries" by Giulio Ongaro
and
"Military Organisation Renaissance: Venice C. 1400 to 1617" by Mallett and Hale

The Venetian core amphibious infantry are pretty fascinating although I personally find the Venetian artillery and artillerymen more interesting, the quality of both the equipment and soldiers in the artillery regiments are jaw droppingly forward thinking, while I will avoid the subject of the guns themselves for now (PM me if you want to know a bit more), the intake and training was staggering, even before you began the initial training you had to pass some very difficult examinations in mathematics and ballistics with a small amount of minor chemistry thrown in for the fun of it. Then once you had achieved that you got to actually start practical training, which also had strict guidelines for how effective a gunner could work in terms of accuracy, speed and teamwork, this is only the standard man too, the officers had even tougher versions of training to get through, it was far more intensive than the other cannon heavy nations of Europe such as England Spain and the South HRE.

Wow. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. That's amazing. Those books are going on my "to buy" list.

I don't see a power creep happening, it would just be nice to see some degree of being able to recruit more differentiating units, you could quite nicely breakdown military organisation into sub categories along all kinds of segments, such as light, heavy, regular, irregular, professional, conscripted, elite. I just get so fed up of every unit being equal, its so bland and doesnt reflect the really quite diverse differentiating military doctrine from all over the world with regards to playing to each nations strength.

The huge stacks of same things are so immersion breaking, as is the massive overpopulation of artillery on the back line, I just want to see more flavourful conflict for everyone, not just the Turks, I like the new mechanics, just not the one nation availability for high end troops.

And yeah, when you put it like that that makes more sense. It'd be interesting to have more diverse roles for units than we have now.
 

HadjiNazmi

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looking at the Venetian Ottoman wars, where over the many years the Ottomans took about 8 casualties for every 1 Venetian, losing about 600,000 men compared to about 75,000 Venetians, this despite the influence of the supposedly powerful Janissary troops.
Will we soon see more nations able to get hold of high end units or will it remain closed off as an Ottoman only thing?

I hope this is a joke. There is no Turkish Army like 600,000 troops. At the most powerful time of the Turkish Army (Süleyman The Magnificent's era) Janissaries were just 14,000. And the all Turkish Army in Empire was 200,000 (including sipahis, akinjis, voynuks etc.) With the increasing of importance of the Rifleman troops at all Europa at late 16th and 17th century, the Turkish Empire decreased the number of the sipahis and increased the janissaries to 60,000-70,000.

Concisely; there is no 600,000 troops army. It's a fantasy.
 
Last edited:

wthree

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You realize these Janissaries; which basically require the Ottomans to keep Heathen land around instead of converting it [Which means the land is less effective]; are still a nerf to the Ottomans; right?

The current 'Jannisaries' modifier is gone. That was just a flat buff to the entire Ottoman army.

And yes; the Janissaries were the Ottoman's Elite soldiers. They were basically the personal guard and soldiers of the Sultan himself; literally raised to be elite soldiers from childhood.

Yes that horrible less effective heathen land....whose negatives are negated by high tolerance, and in exchange come along with reduced tech cost and higher tax rates...
 

makaramus

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for people that raging and saying "janies were not diffrent than professional army"
you are right... they are example of past prof army... no doubt
but they were not only man in army... there were peasants with rifles too in that army... light cavalaries to hunt enemies too .

lets look at prussia: Do you know why prussia dont have elite unit? because his entire army(I mean almost entire army... they had one of best proffesional armies) are elit and because of it it instead they get %33 inf combat abilty
I dont know about history of china but I think banner units are symbolising warrior manchu units diffrence than usual chineese warrior? I suppose (wich makes sense... if you living up by plunder and war this makes you better fighter automaticly)

As example: if there was a "elite navy" stuff england wont get it... reason? Because they got naval ideas that turning their entire fleet into elite navy

Elite units are being a thing when nation has no idea symbolizing them! Or if they require someting unique

manchu banners:Cause corruption
Russia elite units(not sure about name):Extra stab cost
Jannisaries:risk of disaster if used too much
Mercs(Yes mercs are elite units too now since they benefit extra discipline from plutocratic idea and age benefit): more ducats


So yes you are right: Jannisaries are not diffrent than prof army:But thats point: Entire army of ottoman empire wasnt proffesional.
 

Emoneh

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I hope this is a joke. There is no Turkish Army like 600,000 troops. At the most powerful time of the Turkish Army (Süleyman The Magnificent's era) Janissaries were just 14,000. And the all Turkish Army in Empire was 200,000 (including sipahis, akinjis, voynuks etc.) With the increasing of importance of the Rifleman troops at all Europa at late 16th and 17th century, the Turkish Empire decreased the number of the sipahis and increased the janissaries to 60,000-70,000.

Concisely; there is no 600,000 troops army. It's a fantasy.

This is a bit of a non-sequitur. The previous poster was pretty obviously talking about the total number of casualties across the Ottoman-Venetian wars which span across hundreds of years. I have no idea if his claim is true or not, but making claims about the size of the Ottoman army in 1444 is hardly a refutation.
 

Fluffy_Fishy

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Wow. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. That's amazing. Those books are going on my "to buy" list.

And yeah, when you put it like that that makes more sense. It'd be interesting to have more diverse roles for units than we have now.

You're more than welcome, I am always up for a little chat about Venice. Sadly those books are so expensive though the first one is a lot thinner than the 2nd though, so if you are prioritising one I would go for the Military Organisation of the Renaissance state first.

I hope this is a joke. There is no Turkish Army like 600,000 troops. At the most powerful time of the Turkish Army (Süleyman The Magnificent's era) Janissaries were just 14,000. And the all Turkish Army in Empire was 200,000 (including sipahis, akinjis, voynuks etc.) With the increasing of importance of the Rifleman troops at all Europa at late 16th and 17th century, the Turkish Empire decreased the number of the sipahis and increased the janissaries to 60,000-70,000.

Concisely; there is no 600,000 troops army. It's a fantasy.

This is a bit of a non-sequitur. The previous poster was pretty obviously talking about the total number of casualties across the Ottoman-Venetian wars which span across hundreds of years. I have no idea if his claim is true or not, but making claims about the size of the Ottoman army in 1444 is hardly a refutation.

As Emoneh stated, I was clearly talking about the total loss of life in conflicts, sadly the numbers are true, the human cost to these wars are jaw dropping, especially as they were fought over such small gains, they eventually exhausted both states and while the Ottomans made minor land gains they never became the dominant trade power in the Eastern Mediterranean, it would have benefited the Turks far more had they left the small Venetian footholds be, especially as Venice was a neutral power the cost vs gain is just shocking.

Its also important to remember Ottomans didn't have rifles, they had smooth bore musket infantry weapons as was the norm until the late 18th century, their cannons were smooth bore too, this is something else worth pointing out and part of the reason for the differentiation in casualties in the conflicts, Venetians adopted and improved on rifling technology after its introduction to the city in the early16th century, with a special workshop for drilling rifling grooves in the Arsenal gun foundries for their bronze cannons, although their iron guns to my knowledge didn't get this same treatment, rifling combined with other technological leads of Venetian bronze cannons such as hyper advanced metallurgy meant Venetian cannons were far more accurate and long range than the poorly made Turkish counterparts.This is especially damaging considering that by the 16th century artillery was most often the cause for the most death on the battlefield.
 

HadjiNazmi

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You're more than welcome, I am always up for a little chat about Venice. Sadly those books are so expensive though the first one is a lot thinner than the 2nd though, so if you are prioritising one I would go for the Military Organisation of the Renaissance state first.





As Emoneh stated, I was clearly talking about the total loss of life in conflicts, sadly the numbers are true, the human cost to these wars are jaw dropping, especially as they were fought over such small gains, they eventually exhausted both states and while the Ottomans made minor land gains they never became the dominant trade power in the Eastern Mediterranean, it would have benefited the Turks far more had they left the small Venetian footholds be, especially as Venice was a neutral power the cost vs gain is just shocking.

Its also important to remember Ottomans didn't have rifles, they had smooth bore musket infantry weapons as was the norm until the late 18th century, their cannons were smooth bore too, this is something else worth pointing out and part of the reason for the differentiation in casualties in the conflicts, Venetians adopted and improved on rifling technology after its introduction to the city in the early16th century, with a special workshop for drilling rifling grooves in the Arsenal gun foundries for their bronze cannons, although their iron guns to my knowledge didn't get this same treatment, rifling combined with other technological leads of Venetian bronze cannons such as hyper advanced metallurgy meant Venetian cannons were far more accurate and long range than the poorly made Turkish counterparts.This is especially damaging considering that by the 16th century artillery was most often the cause for the most death on the battlefield.

Ottomans have rifles. But not suprisingly they didn't use them until late 18th century like Europa.

https://en.0wikipedia.org/index.php?q=aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi53aWtpcGVkaWEub3JnL3dpa2kvUmlmbGU

"Since musketeers could not afford to take the time to stop and clean their barrels in the middle of a battle, rifles were limited to use by sharpshooters and non-military uses like hunting".
This is from Wikipedia.

For the rifle type guns, Turkish language have a word; "şeşhane". If you come to Istanbul, you can see perfect Rifle(Şeşhane) products made by Tophane-i Amire(Imperial Armory). At the Imperial Armory, the workers were almost Europeans like Venetians, French, Hungarian etc. So there is rifles. Until the Induıstrial Revolution Imperial Armory was equal of the other European samples.
 
Last edited:

bagas12

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I love how those threads usually end with some sort of nationalistic pride where people take sides and like to defend numbers and "facts" like they are competing or something.

Make for good reads thought.
 

holyvigil

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I love how those threads usually end with some sort of nationalistic pride where people take sides and like to defend numbers and "facts" like they are competing or something.

Make for good reads thought.

I'm glad someone enjoys nationalistic pride of other countries. I just enjoy imagining the descriptions. Unless they cite to a book from the period or something of that sort, I don't really believe it though.
 
Last edited:

kakatua

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Janissaries have their "uniqueness" status because the way they were recruited and trained. EXACTLY(hiperbole, in fact it was just similar) equal to, surprise yourself, MAMLUKS!
Yes! This is a common thing in Muslim Middle East since XII century. By the way, for some time, the Mamluk Sultanate was ruled by Georgians and another time by Armenians Mamluks! Why Janissaries became more iconic in history than Mamluks? Simple. Mamluks never conquered parts of Europe, invaded Constantinople, etc. After all, who cares about Georgia/Armenia/Middle East, right?

Oh, the Janissaries also were the first troops to use firearms in Europe. And that is it. They were just a big standing army. Not much "standing", as most of time they were merchants in peace-time and, after some time, land-owners themselves. Basically a normal noble, that does his own thing at peace-time, answering the Call to Arms from his overlord, except their overlord is the Sultan himself. It is completely different of the concept of standing armies, as you can read below.

A standing army, unlike a reserve army, is a permanent, often professional, army. It is composed of full-time soldiers (who may be either career soldiers or conscripts) and is not disbanded during times of peace. It differs from army reserves, who are enrolled for the long term, but activated only during wars or natural disasters, and temporary armies, which are raised from the civilian population only during a war or threat of war and disbanded once the war or threat is over.

About their performance, it is complicated. They were never used as sole entity, but the Ottoman Army, in general, was AWFUL at combat, losing uncountable times to much smaller armies and garrisons, namely in Armenia, Georgia, Albania, Greece, Hungary or any place they tried to invade. There is more merit to Portugal in the fall of the Mameluke Sultanate than to the Ottoman Army, that got rekt by the same Sultanate in the first war and just didn't lost land because the Mamluks had problems supplying a big army so far from home.

The Ottoman navy, however, was pretty good and had easy time in the first and second war against Mamluks and could keep Christians at bay. They had professional board teams, that had this sole purpose in the fleet. The size was like 30,000 at Lepanto, if I'm remembering correctly. ZERO bonuses to Ottoman navy in game.

Ottoman bureaucracy and logistics, however, is where the roots of the empire are. The empire could gather much more taxes, raise and supply a much larger army than the Christians it had to face. Even fighting some Crusades/Coalitions, the Ottoman Empire had a bigger army and navy than the whole enemy team. Doubt? Ottomans had more ships at Lepanto. Against the banks of Spain, Genoa, Venice and the Fugger Banks. After the loss the navy was never the same.

If this game tried to follow some historical approach, the Ottoman Empire should be like the old Russia:
++ Manpower
+ Force Limits
- Regiment Costs
New Janissaries

The Janissaries were the ONE of elites in the Ottoman army, but isn't hard to be the elite when the rest of the army is purely militia. It does make them be seen as better, but doesn't made them better.

I would end, but a question needs to be made: If most of European armies were like Generals + Nobles + Mercenaries + tons of militia, considering militia is militia anywhere and the Ottoman had much more, the Europeans needed to be much better in something else to compensate and win.

Were European mercenaries better? If, so, they should be used to a more advanced kind of warfare. If Janissaries were used to an outdated warfare, they weren't such a threat.
Were European noble/elite forces better? That is a directly confront, so I don't need to extend here.
Were European generals better? Check two lines above.