Why Do Muslims Proselytize?
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The link draws a distinction between forced conversion and "inviting someone to the faith" (which I'm going to call "missionary work").
I think that the councillor action (for every religion) is more like missionary work. In particular, its chance of success increases with increased learning. To me, that sounds more like reasoned argument than forced conversion.
The only true forced conversion that I'm aware of in-game is demanding religious conversions from imprisoned courtiers/vassals. Perhaps this should be disallowed for some religions - but that's a pretty small edge case IMO.
I think that the councillor action (for every religion) is more like missionary work. In particular, its chance of success increases with increased learning. To me, that sounds more like reasoned argument than forced conversion.
The only true forced conversion that I'm aware of in-game is demanding religious conversions from imprisoned courtiers/vassals. Perhaps this should be disallowed for some religions - but that's a pretty small edge case IMO.
Right, Muslims do proselytise and always have.
Although that does raise questions about how the "hunt apostates" action can function as irrc it can fire on people not of your religion.
Although that does raise questions about how the "hunt apostates" action can function as irrc it can fire on people not of your religion.
muslims in ck2 get a decent income bonus from provinces with different majority religions (jizya tax), so they have an incentive to let their subjects keep their old religion.
imo it would be overkill to complete remove the option to proselytize for them. all other religions have it.
imo it would be overkill to complete remove the option to proselytize for them. all other religions have it.
@jonjowett
I suppose you could argue there are two types of proselytism: aggressive and passive. I was just thinking of the former because that is how Paradox seems to think when they stated that Proselytizing nature is Christian-like where Dogmatic nature is Islamic-like.
Anyhow, for intent and purposes of this game the proselytizing done by the court-chaplain is the more aggressive approach, and it shouldn't be done by Muslim AI, at least not as often as Christian AI.
I suppose you could argue there are two types of proselytism: aggressive and passive. I was just thinking of the former because that is how Paradox seems to think when they stated that Proselytizing nature is Christian-like where Dogmatic nature is Islamic-like.
Anyhow, for intent and purposes of this game the proselytizing done by the court-chaplain is the more aggressive approach, and it shouldn't be done by Muslim AI, at least not as often as Christian AI.
AI does not factor that in, the script tells us that much.
As you can see from the script Paradox has disabled Pagan AI from proselytizing.
What about Judaism perhaps that one shouldn't be able to proselytize? While i don't believe in a jewish people and see it more as a religious denomination. It is part of the religion that it is something people are mostly born into and not something people become.
they dont even have to be hypocrites themselves,these religions often have contradicting instructions.
maybe the guys that proselitize just chery picked certain instructions and ignored others
No, Holy War Casus Belli is the aggressive approach, not proselytizing. And as you can see... Holy War from muslims keeps infidels in possition.
It can't fire on somebody just for following a different religion. They have to be demon worshipers or have a secret religion. Since Muslims abandoning their religion for another was historically seen as a capital crime, it makes sense that such apostates would be executed.
(It can fire because the Court Chaplain makes a mistake and fingers an innocent, or frames someone they dislike, but that's another matter altogether.)
The Court Chaplain's proselytization is generally a peaceful one that involves preaching rather than forced conversion, so it fits very will with Islam. Real world Islam historically sent out missionaries just like some other religions did.
This isn't too surprising considering what some passages of the Quran say.
This depends on the nature picked for the religion.
Historically Judaism was an actively proselytizing religion as well. It was only later on that it stopped, though I'm not sure if this was before or after the CK2 timespan. Either way if a Jewish state manages to establish itself I think it makes sense for them to proselytize. The reason it stopped was more due to self-preservation than anything else, since Christian and Muslim rulers were not too keen on Jews trying to convert others to their religion.
Remember that Muslim realms have the Jizya tax: falsely claiming to be Muslim to get out of it was common, but illegal and harshly punished (mostly because they already had tax base problems because of the exemptions). Having a "secret religion" when different religions have different legal standings has long been punishable- most of the Spanish Inquisition's tactics were only legal because those subject to them were said to be false confessors.
As for Judaism proselytizing, as I understand it, most believe they're only supposed to when the Temple in Jerusalem exists/is active, though there were and are a lot of different views.
As for Judaism proselytizing, as I understand it, most believe they're only supposed to when the Temple in Jerusalem exists/is active, though there were and are a lot of different views.
the Jews stopped long before the romans took control of them and they actually started wars for self gain not to spread the faith. They never actually won any wars until the Prophet and King David (A.S) come along.The Christians were actually trying to spread the faith so they were received the fruits of their labour as did the Muslim faithful as long as they remained truthful to Allah.
Most Muslims were actually defeated was when they stopped caring about Allah,the people and started caring about money and whores or they were betrayed by those type of people.Actually the same is true for Christians 
One of the only two easily accessible Jewish realm in the game is the Khazars, aka people who converted. Would be daft for them to not to be able to, besides I'm pretty sure the Jewish religion already wont activly convert counties unless they are zealous.
The topic is peaceful conversion, not wars.
When it comes to that the Jews were certainly active past the arrival of the Romans, though I'm not sure exactly when they became more reserved about it.I have no idea what you are trying to say with your last sentence about Christians and Muslims.
Or maybe aggressive, passive, and what I'll call "proactive." Aggressive is conversion through the sword; passive is converting people living under your rule through the use of missionaries and other (generally) peaceful ways; proactive is sending missionaries to convert people living in OTHER realms, which leads to a lot of martyrs.
Demanding conversion and revoking titles like in the game would be, I don't know... passive-aggressive? (Or maybe aggressively passive.)
I'm going to need some sources about that.
Judaism takes its roots in several ethno-religions. Ethno-religions, by definition, do not proselyze outside of a specific ethnic group.
I know some people thought that the size of the jewish communities inside of the Roman empire, or such things as "Beta yisrael" or jewish Khazars (and other examples) could only be explained through proselytization, but they have been proven wrong many times. It's true that some states and some people decided to convert to judaism at certain point, but they didn't do it because of jewish prozelytization (it's usually political and/or theological, and motivated by internal forces, not by external jewish missionaries - the Khazars converted because they didn't want to choose between christianity and islam, but they didn't want to be pagans either).
And the jewish communities inside of the Roman empire are quite a complicated matter given the variety of jewish sects, and the fact that "jewish" was both a religion and an ethnonym. Just to give an example, the jewish community in Alexandria, Egypt was very hellenized and quite open religiously, so you were jewish as soon as you were part of the jewish community basically ("inside the walls" conversion).
But while jewish communities sometimes grew thanks to a very permissive conversion rules, they were never proselytizing in the sense of sending missionaries to convert people. Except in the very specific case of a group of people already considered as jewish, but following the wrong sect/religion (in that case it's perceived more like a return to judaism).
muslims have a perfectly valid reason to not use the proselytizing function. if they don't take that into account due to some oversight (or questionable logic) in a script, that would be a reason to change the script and not a reason to remove the proselytizing feature for muslims altogether.
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