Why do many players consider HoI4 to be easy/too easy?

[RosegoldCrobat]

What is it in the game that causes many people to say that the game is too easy? I've heard many people say it's by far the easiest Paradox game and that there is no difficulty. I've seen many threads on Reddit and some on here that complain about the difficulty.

I don't see where these people are coming from. Does the majority of this community find it too easy or is it just a loud minority?

 

[Alspego]

Once you reach a certain level of basic understanding of the game mechanics, the AI does not provide a challenge (e.g. because of suicide attacks depleting all of their equipment and manpower). I think, the AI in EU4 or CK2 is more challenging (until you are reaching a certain strength) since e.g. the combat mechanics are not as deep. But, HOI4 is a more challenging multiplayer game compared to EU4.

 

[a_sophist]

According to Paradox's statistics most people play on the easier difficulties so there's certainly an argument for it being a minority. Consider that most people who own the game are not actively posting on the forum or reddit. Also, a fair few people would rather play on regular with the Expert AI mod, since the "harder difficulties" are primarily player debuffs that aren't fun and constrain player choice to a significant degree. That aside, the primary issue is that there isn't much of a learning curve for the base game, as cheap mass produced divisions and some planes still get the job done even if it takes awhile. Of course it's still a good idea to optimize from there, but it's no longer an issue of difficulty so much as challenging yourself to improve on past performance.

 

[RosegoldCrobat]

Once you reach a certain level of basic understanding of the game mechanics, the KI does not provide a challenge (e.g. because of suicide attacks depleting all of their equipment and manpower). I think, the KI in EU4 or CK2 is more challenging (until you are reaching a certain strength) since e.g. the combat mechanics are not as deep. But, HOI4 is a more challenging multiplayer game compared to EU4.

I want to think that I understand the basic game mechanics. I have no big issues with research or construction. But I still can not win wars even as the strongest powers and I have played quite a lot. How much would one have to play to understand "the basics".

I'm a mostly EU4 player but I've played 150 hours of HoI4 and I just can't win wars. I was much better at EU4 after 150 hours than I currently am at HoI4. Winning wars is so hard.

Also by KI do you mean AI? Are you German perhaps?

 

[RosegoldCrobat]

According to Paradox's statistics most people play on the easier difficulties so there's certainly an argument for it being a minority. Consider that most people who own the game are not actively posting on the forum or reddit. Also, a fair few people would rather play on regular with the Expert AI mod, since the "harder difficulties" are primarily player debuffs that aren't fun and constrain player choice to a significant degree. That aside, the primary issue is that there isn't much of a learning curve for the base game, as cheap mass produced divisions and some planes still get the job done even if it takes awhile. Of course it's still a good idea to optimize from there, but it's no longer an issue of difficulty so much as challenging yourself to improve on past performance.

I just find this game so difficult and many replies I get when talking to others about the game is that it's super easy and that the AI sucks. Some people will tell me just to draw a line press the arrow and go get popcorn. Before I got HoI4 I was under the impression that it would be a lot easier than EU4 but I don't find that anywhere close to true.

 

[a_sophist]

I just find this game so difficult and many replies I get when talking to others about the game is that it's super easy and that the AI sucks. Some people will tell me just to draw a line press the arrow and go get popcorn.

Well that's just bad advice and probably why you're losing. Think about that logic. People are telling you the AI is bad, and then suggesting you let the AI do the fighting for you! Aside from that you should specifically say what you're having a problem with to get useful information.

Before I got HoI4 I was under the impression that it would be a lot easier than EU4 but I don't find that anywhere close to true.

I'm in the process of learning EU4 now and I think it's much more difficult to learn to play well, since there are simply so many mechanics that one can learn to optimize, but sure marching a doomstack around and then carpet sieges is simpler than HOI4 combat.

 

[coffeelingfine]

I want to think that I understand the basic game mechanics. I have no big issues with research or construction. But I still can not win wars even as the strongest powers and I have played quite a lot. How much would one have to play to understand "the basics".

I'm a mostly EU4 player but I've played 150 hours of HoI4 and I just can't win wars. I was much better at EU4 after 150 hours than I currently am at HoI4. Winning wars is so hard.

Also by KI do you mean AI? Are you German perhaps?

I'm the opposite when it comes to war in HOI4/EU4. War in EU4 stresses me out unless I'm fighting a country far weaker than me.

That said HOI 4 still isn't a cakewalk for me either despite having over a 1000 hours in it.

 

[RosegoldCrobat]

Well that's just bad advice and probably why you're losing. Think about that logic. People are telling you the AI is bad, and then suggesting you let the AI do the fighting for you! Aside from that you should specifically say what you're having a problem with to get useful information.

I'm in the process of learning EU4 now and I think it's much more difficult to learn to play well, since there are simply so many mechanics that one can learn to optimize, but sure marching a doomstack around and then carpet sieges is simpler than HOI4 combat.

In general when I play strategy games I focus the least on warfare. Back when I played Civ 5 I was very good at microing pops and I never won using the domination victory. EU4 has a very streamlined battle system but it's more focused on country management which is what I'm good at. Combat in EU4 is easy enough even for me though. Just stack modifiers and get a few doomstacks basically. There are finer details but you pick those up along the way.

In HoI4 combat is 95 % of the game so I guess that's why it's so difficult for me. I'm used to the fast pace of EU4 and transitioning over to the slower micromanaging style of HoI4 is very very difficult for me.

I must admit I'm not the best at EU4 I don't have many very hard achievement and I don't really do WCs but I'm rather good at it.

 

[a_sophist]

War in EU4 stresses me out unless I'm fighting a country far weaker than me.

What I'm learning is that, unlike HOI4, it's okay to let the AI wander around in your land if the army isn't that big, rather than engaging in a country-wide game of tag. Siege their stuff down to prevent reinforcement, then go kill whatever is in your land. With HOI, a game that has fronts and auto-capitulations, that plan is a obviously a dangerous race against the clock.

 

[RosegoldCrobat]

I'm the opposite when it comes to war in HOI4/EU4. War in EU4 stresses me out unless I'm fighting a country far weaker than me.

That said HOI 4 still isn't a cakewalk for me either despite having over a 1000 hours in it.

It's also so that combat AI in EU4 is not good. It's so easy to fool if you know your way around it. And bigger army diplomacy is basically the name of the game. If you have the biggest army and it has somewhat decent quality you're good. In HoI4 I find it's possible to lose even when you're very strong on paper. HoI4 and EU4 are much much much much more different than I anticipated before I started playing HoI4.

 

[a_sophist]

In HoI4 combat is 95 % of the game so I guess that's why it's so difficult for me. I'm used to the fast pace of EU4 and transitioning over to the slower micromanaging style of HoI4 is very very difficult for me.

I think HOI4 being labeled as a GSG has caused a lot of confusion and annoyance over a range of issues, primarily expectations of what the game is and where it's going. If it were labeled a wargame, and the analogy was a scaled up version of Total War games rather than a WW2 version of EU4/Victoria2, a lot of those expectations could have been resolved before people bought the game.

 

[Denkt]

HOI4 tend to play out much faster than other paradox games which can give the illusion that it is easier. If you do well even a small country can become very powerful quickly. But it is far less forgiving if you do something wrong compared to other paradox games in which a wrong move generally have pretty small consequences.

If somebody is targeting world conquest HOI4 may appear easier because world conquest can be done rather quickly but the difficulty more or less disappear at some point and large amount of EUIV you would be pretty much unstoppable anyway and the thing become just a race against the clock.

Another thing is the EUIV is more a builder game in which, that you look at ways to maximize your nations abilities with stuff such as national ideas and policies. Also there are challenges such as converting the world or so.

On the other hand EUIV tends to be far more forgiving especially if you have modest goals while HOI4 is more all or nothing type of warfare.

In EUIV time is the main challenge while in HOI4 every casualty counts.

 

[Marcus]

Who are you playing as and what is happening?

HOI4 is really easy though, once you figure out encirclement-destruction, you are golden.

 

[Secret Master]

I want to think that I understand the basic game mechanics. I have no big issues with research or construction. But I still can not win wars even as the strongest powers and I have played quite a lot. How much would one have to play to understand "the basics".

Let me address a few things, as you have actually asked a complicated question in this (and other) post.

1) The game's mechanics are pretty complex. In terms of Paradox games, Vic2 is probably more complicated (or at least opaque), but in HOI4, there are plenty of small things that you may not know about influencing game play. And all of those small things tend to add up. Let me give an example: Did you know that you could have 1940 light fighters in production (as Britain) with the proper design company by late 1939? The way the NFs give bonuses stack with the design company and a few other things to result in the production of some of the best planes in the war years ahead of time. It's like having the Mustang flying before the US enters the war. This is a huge advantage once you know how to do it, because even if you don't have tons of air XP, the 1944 light fighter is so much better than the 1940 light fighter that you can get insane kill ratios against enemy planes. And since air power is so damn important, you do the math. In this case, a single course of action has cascading results that affect the entire war.

2) The AI is really bad at production. Not just in terms of knowing what to produce, but in terms of leaving MIC alone so that it actually builds production efficiency. I've said this before on the forum (and I stole the phrase anyway), but HOI4 is often won in the factories. Even a 5% difference in factory efficiency over the course of two years can make a huge difference. And humans that know how to run their factories can get insane advantages over the AI even when the AI should have more factories.

3) The AI poorly utilizes templates. Human templates are so much better. I can achieve wonderful concentrations of force against AI opponents just by utilizing good templates. If you get crazy and stack silly minister and general bonuses on top of odd division combinations, you can achieve even better results. :sigh: (CAV strangeness)

4) New players often don't understand width, how soft attack works, or what doctrines are actually doing. Some of this is just the game being opaque, but if a player does not understand what soft attack and hardness are, they are not going to understand how in the Hell to design divisions or counter other designs.

5) Air power is crucial, but its effects are not well understood by newer players. Hell, aircraft design is not even well understood by experienced players, because the relationship between reliability, air attack, and agility is really damn complicated. I didn't even understand it until I did hours worth of tests to figure out how to design planes.

6) The AI can be lured into bad combats. It would take too long to explain, but you can defeat the Soviet Union as Germany by just sitting in place and defending against Soviet attacks until the Soviets kill millions trying to dislodge you from your starting positions in Barbarossa.

 

[Fulmen]

I've been playing PDX games for 12 years now. I've played most of their games and have probably somewhere around 10-15k hours in them combined. While a good chunk of that is multiplayer, I can say with confidence that HoI4 is by far the easiest singleplayer game PDX has ever made. Honestly the same can be said about its multiplayer.

Some people argue HoI4 only seems simple because there is less micro than in previous HoIs due to a better UI. This is simply not true. HoI4 with current DLCs lacks far more even basic flavour content than its predecessors had at launch. Content-wise it's about as shallow as Stellaris, if not more so after the latest Stellaris DLCs, but lacks the speed bumps to snowballing that game offers. Not that snowballing even on the hardest difficulty isn't ridiculously easy in Stellaris singleplayer as well.

AI has always paled in comparison to real players, but in previous HoIs you had far fewer ways to min-max to absurd degrees. The ridiculously powerful research bonuses in HoI4 are a good example of this. Mechanics in general had a lot more depth than they do in HoI4, but without actually widening the gap between player and AI anywhere as much as the far simpler mechanics in this game do.

 

[Alex_brunius]

IMO it's down to weak AI and some really OP exploits/mechanics that are common knowledge among people who play alot of min-max Multiplayer.

The game also gets many times easier if you are playing it vs the AI at slower speeds and micromanage everything.

 

[Shinkuro Yukinari]

Two words.
Retarded AI.

 

[Praetori]

What is it in the game that causes many people to say that the game is too easy? I've heard many people say it's by far the easiest Paradox game and that there is no difficulty. I've seen many threads on Reddit and some on here that complain about the difficulty.

I don't see where these people are coming from. Does the majority of this community find it too easy or is it just a loud minority?

It's a loud and pretty large minority. But still a minority.
Some of us who play the game a lot (people with 2k hours or pushing 3k hours or more) have often learned to minmax the mechanics, focuses and IC and/or micro the operational game so it essentially breaks even the hardest game difficulties (as in the AI is hopelessly outmatched since it doesn't have the tools/scripting to pose a challenge in such circumstances).

That being said there are mods out there (like ExpertAI) that makes the game challenging even for veterans. And then there's Multiplayer which, given the right opposition, is never easy.

 

[STABBY5]

I remember a game where I entirely forgot to build an air force as Germany. I also hadn't built any tanks. The Russians invaded. I lost almost no one to bad ai templates who quickly ran out of equipment where as I good reserves. Then I just walked to Moscow. If you understand production and templates you can kill the ai as almost any country.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

It might be a minority who think the game AI is easy but if you take the time to learn the mechanics and play the game slowly and avoid using the AI in land engagements you will quickly see why the game is so easy.

I have to invoke pretty serious penalties to myself (or rules) for the AI to pose any sort of challenge and for the game to still remain fun in single player.

The AI will easily keep attacking and hitting their head on a wall against your entrenched units while you have time to build planning bonuses and push spearheads in and easily grab important strategic positions and slowly crushing the AIs ability to mount and sort of defense. In unmodded games the AI will simply cripple itself on attrition all the time. The AI rarely gain much benefit from planning and entrenchment since it hardly can stand still enough to gain it, it behave like a kid on a sugar rush most of the time.