I am the Emperor of Russia and I own Cherson (which is, de jure, part of the Byzantine Empire). My Crown Authority allows for Free Infidel Revokation, and a bishop there had converted to heresy, so I wanted to revoke his title and grant it to one of my secondary sons to take him out of the line of succession. However, I can't. One of the conditions to revoke his title is "Crown Authority of the Byzantine Empire allows Revokation." I can provide a screenshot if necessary. Why would laws of the Byzantine Empire extend to a region that is only de jure theirs when they haven't even owned that region in, quite literally, hundreds of years?
Why do I need permission from the Byzantine Empire to revoke a title from my vassal?
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Portal is right. Left-click on the Byzantine Empire shield-icon and select 'de jure' - it will show you Cherson is considered a 'de jure' part of the Byzantine Empire. As long as it remains so, the crown laws (CA) that apply to it will be those of the Byzantine Empire. After a set period of time (usually a hundred years without it being part of the empire) it will drift outside of the realm and the CA of whatever realm they've been in during the meantime will apply instead.
I know it doesn't really make much sense - it's because of gameplay considerations and the problem of implementation. There's other examples, such as Flanders (in 1066) being considered a de jure part of the HRE when it was never that (during the entire timeframe of CK2 it was a de jure part of France instead). The reasoning behind this seems to be that the Kingdom of Frisia (of which the 'Duchy' of Flanders is a constituent part) is a hypothetical kingdom under the HRE, which means that all duchies under it (including Flanders) are also considered a part of the HRE. This means, to implement primogeniture, you require the CA in the HRE to be 'high' instead of France, or wait 100 years for de jure drift to occur - either of which isn't likely to occur very soon.
I know it doesn't really make much sense - it's because of gameplay considerations and the problem of implementation. There's other examples, such as Flanders (in 1066) being considered a de jure part of the HRE when it was never that (during the entire timeframe of CK2 it was a de jure part of France instead). The reasoning behind this seems to be that the Kingdom of Frisia (of which the 'Duchy' of Flanders is a constituent part) is a hypothetical kingdom under the HRE, which means that all duchies under it (including Flanders) are also considered a part of the HRE. This means, to implement primogeniture, you require the CA in the HRE to be 'high' instead of France, or wait 100 years for de jure drift to occur - either of which isn't likely to occur very soon.
The way I've understood the concept of "de jure" is that it's just traditionally associated with their country. Legally? It's mine. It's not like the Russians actually historically conquered Cherson, but if they did, "hey that still belongs to us" would sound like a pretty weak argument for asserting Byzantine law. Especially since Cherson is closer to MY capital than it is to theirs (by land, anyway).
There are some historical cases where "de jure" associations had a notable effect on laws, but there is usually a massive power gap between the countries involved. For instance, when the Americans first became independent from the British, the British still bullied American trade, kept troops on American territory, and when the Napoleonic wars broke out, commandeered American ships, forcing them to join the British navy, because the British felt that Americans were still British.
On the other hand, in this imaginative scenario where an extremely massive Russian Empire takes Cherson (from the Ilkhanate, even; the Byzantines had lost Cherson to the Turks, who subsequently lost it to the Ilkhanate, about 200 years ago), the Byzantines are highly unlikely to continue asserting their authority over Cherson.
I'm aware that Cherson is de jure Byzantine territory, I did mention that in the op. Actually, I'm curious about this "drift." I own the Kingdom of Alania, which is currently being incorporated, de jure, into Russia. However, Cherson is not, even though I own the whole thing. I have other Duchies that aren't being incorporated, too, even though I do own the whole thing. Is there some reason why these aren't being incorporated?
De jure literally means of law. To understand the concepts of de jure you must understand the theological underpinnings of dejure in Christian society. You are familiar with the 'Divine Right of Kings,' yes? The extension of that is the divine rights of Kingdoms themselves. In legal and theological thought (which were always closely related, with heresy punishable by law and such), Kingdoms were established by God to rule a given area of land. No new kingdoms could exist, as the existing kingdoms were literally given by God. The thing is that in the eyes of God, aka the Church and everybody else, Cherson is part of Byzantium because God established that's where Byzantium is.
Of course, that didn't always apply, with invasions and shifting borders and such. But that was the theory. The trouble is that dejure wasn't really a thing outside of Catholic Europe. Also, technically the only empires were the Holy Roman and Byzantine ones, so Imperial Russia shouldn't even exist. Your empire isn't even legitimate in the eyes of God, so your problem is really a non issue.
Contrast defacto, of fact.
Of course, that didn't always apply, with invasions and shifting borders and such. But that was the theory. The trouble is that dejure wasn't really a thing outside of Catholic Europe. Also, technically the only empires were the Holy Roman and Byzantine ones, so Imperial Russia shouldn't even exist. Your empire isn't even legitimate in the eyes of God, so your problem is really a non issue.
Contrast defacto, of fact.
De jure is legally (edit: as Portal also said while I was typing my reply). The duchy of Cherson is a de facto part of your realm, but is considered a de jure (legal) part of the Byzantine Empire. More precisely, the "superimposed" kingdom of Taurica (duchies of Cherson + Crimea) is most likely considered a de jure part of the ERE, which means that the constituent duchies (including Cherson) are also considered as such.
I know you said that, what I meant to imply is that this view evolves over time and you can check the progress in the same view. If you click the 'de jure' button you can see which kingdoms are considered a part of the ERE, and which duchies are considered a part of which kingdoms, etc. This is handy because your problem is most likely caused by something in between the levels of the duchy (of Cherson) and the empire (of Byzantium): i.e. the kingdom (of Taurica).
The underlying problem seems to be as follows: the duchy of Cherson is a de jure part of the kingdom of Taurica, and the kingdom of Taurica is a de jure part of the ERE. An (entire) duchy can only drift from one kingdom to another, an (entire) kingdom can only drift from one empire to the other. This means that, if the kingdom of Taurica doesn't exist (which seems to be the case), the duchy of Cherson cannot drift from the ERE into one of the kingdoms which is a part of your empire.
I agree that there are several flaws with the mechanic, but I think this implementation is about the closest we'll be able to come to being somewhat plausible from a historical point of view.
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+1 for Arnulfing
btw i own kingdom of austria and croatia, both in HRE, austria become my primary title, i create kingdom of austria with title generator that erase de jure history so Austria not in de jure of HRE, but because it still inside HRE it drifts toward it. currently it has its own crown law, same for croatia, but if it fully re-integrate to HRE, will its crown law become HRE's? and what will happen to croatian crown law because currently its not drift toward HRE like austria?
btw i own kingdom of austria and croatia, both in HRE, austria become my primary title, i create kingdom of austria with title generator that erase de jure history so Austria not in de jure of HRE, but because it still inside HRE it drifts toward it. currently it has its own crown law, same for croatia, but if it fully re-integrate to HRE, will its crown law become HRE's? and what will happen to croatian crown law because currently its not drift toward HRE like austria?
Thanks for the replies, guys, these are informative
I do own the entire Duchies of Crimea and Cherson; however, I am playing Project Balance, and (apparently) Taurica was replaced by the "Kingdom of Crimea", which consists of nothing more than the Duchy of Crimea (now that I think about it, this may simply be a bug, seeing as I have no idea why this would be done), while the Duchy of Cherson has no de jure Kingdom. Do you think this may be why it isn't drifting?
On a related note, I own several other pieces of land that I would expect to be drifting, but aren't. I inherited the Kingdom of Denmark peacefully (well, relatively peacefully) and own the whole thing, but it isn't currently being incorporated into Russia from the de jure Scandinavia. Another example is the Duchy of Azov, which, again, I own the whole thing, yet isn't being incorporated from Cumania (which is a Kingdom, it has no de jure Empire).
Edit: Oh, I almost forgot to mention that the Byzantines never owned Crimea, historically. Is the Kingdom of Taurica de jure Byzantine? Or just Cherson?
Edit 2: OHHHHH WAIT. I feel really stupid now. Okay, I understand why Cherson isn't being incorporated into my lands. Cherson is part of the Kingdom of Trebizond in Project Balance. I don't own the Kingdom of Trebizond yet. God I can't believe I didn't notice that sooner -.-
I do own the entire Duchies of Crimea and Cherson; however, I am playing Project Balance, and (apparently) Taurica was replaced by the "Kingdom of Crimea", which consists of nothing more than the Duchy of Crimea (now that I think about it, this may simply be a bug, seeing as I have no idea why this would be done), while the Duchy of Cherson has no de jure Kingdom. Do you think this may be why it isn't drifting?
On a related note, I own several other pieces of land that I would expect to be drifting, but aren't. I inherited the Kingdom of Denmark peacefully (well, relatively peacefully) and own the whole thing, but it isn't currently being incorporated into Russia from the de jure Scandinavia. Another example is the Duchy of Azov, which, again, I own the whole thing, yet isn't being incorporated from Cumania (which is a Kingdom, it has no de jure Empire).
Edit: Oh, I almost forgot to mention that the Byzantines never owned Crimea, historically. Is the Kingdom of Taurica de jure Byzantine? Or just Cherson?
Edit 2: OHHHHH WAIT. I feel really stupid now. Okay, I understand why Cherson isn't being incorporated into my lands. Cherson is part of the Kingdom of Trebizond in Project Balance. I don't own the Kingdom of Trebizond yet. God I can't believe I didn't notice that sooner -.-
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I do understand your point, and that is an interesting point of view, but if it were 100% that way, then wouldn't pretty much all of Europe except for Northern Germany, Scandinavia, Ireland, Northern Scotland, and Russia be simply de jure Roman Empire?
My vassal holds the entirety of the Duchy of Crimea and Kingdom of Crimea (which isn't being incorporated either). Another vassal holds Tmutarakan, Korsun, and the Duchy of Cherson, while I hold the rest of Cherson (Cherson and Theodosia). No baronies inside these regions have any other allegiance than to the count who governs them.
Edit: actually, I just noticed that the "Duchy of Crimea" is in the process of being incorporated into the "Kingdom of Crimea" (normally it is de jure Cumania). What's curious is that it's only 44/100 into the way of incorporation, but I conquered Crimea 200 years ago. I wonder why it isn't incorporated yet.
Edit 2: It just occurred to me that Cherson is part of the Kingdom of Trebizond in Project Balance, which explains why it isn't being incorporated. However, this still doesn't explain why Crimea isn't being incorporated. Or other Kingdoms and Duchies, for that matter.
Edit: actually, I just noticed that the "Duchy of Crimea" is in the process of being incorporated into the "Kingdom of Crimea" (normally it is de jure Cumania). What's curious is that it's only 44/100 into the way of incorporation, but I conquered Crimea 200 years ago. I wonder why it isn't incorporated yet.
Edit 2: It just occurred to me that Cherson is part of the Kingdom of Trebizond in Project Balance, which explains why it isn't being incorporated. However, this still doesn't explain why Crimea isn't being incorporated. Or other Kingdoms and Duchies, for that matter.
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In fact, all Catholic Kingdoms were "de jure" part of the HRE as were all Orthodox realms vassals to the 'one true' Emperor/Basileios at Constantinople - from the Emperors points of view, of course. But these were just hollow claims in reality since a claim without the power to press it and hold onto it is worth nothing.
Yes, if your duchy of Cherson isn't de jure part of a kingdom, that would probably explain it. I don't have any experience with that myself, though, seeing as I play vanilla; and there every duchy is de jure part of a kingdom. The way the mechanic works (in vanilla) is that an entire duchy can only drift from one kingdom to another. If under 'Project Balance', your duchy of Cherson isn't part of any kingdom, that would probably explain why no drift occurs.
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I could be mistaken, but if you control the entire duchy of Cherson (which you do) and the kingdom of Trebizond exists and is not held by you, the duchy should drift towards one of your kingdoms, though. :-/ Unless the drifting mechanics have been changed from vanilla as well.
Are you absolutely sure all counties and duchies that are a de jure part of the kingdom of Denmark are under the control of that kingdom? This might differ from 'Project Balance', but in vanilla there are a couple of provinces in what is now northern Germany (real world) that are considered a de jure part of the kingdom of Denmark but are de facto under the control of a Duke in the HRE (Oldenburg, Lübeck etc.). You can view these here: http://ckiiwiki.com/List_of_Kingdoms
If you control the entire kingdom of Denmark (and all counties and duchies which are a de jure part of it), then I don't see why it wouldn't drift towards you. Unless it has something to do with the empire of Scandinavia not having been created: it's not impossible that the kingdom (of Denmark) doesn't drift towards you if the title from which it should drift (empire of Scandinavia) doesn't exist.
In vanilla, the duchy of Azov is a de jure part of the kingdom of Alania (together with the duchy of Alania). As the kingdom of Alania is already being incorporated into the empire of Russia, that might explain things - though, again, vanilla might differ from 'Project Balance'. De jure drift always occurs towards your primary title, though I'm not exactly sure how this works if you hold an empire (Russia) and several kingdoms under it.
If you look at the map I linked, the entire kingdom of Taurica, including the duchies of Cherson (and Crimea) are considered de jure part of the ERE in the vanilla game.
From recollection, the Byzantine Empire historically seems to have held several 'possessions' on the southern coast of Crimea until at least 1204 (though the precise nature of these holdings is open to debate: they mostly seem to have been vassal states and/or protectorates), so the decision is not entirely unfounded. I do agree that it doesn't make much sense to include the whole of Crimea and Cherson, though, but the problem is the way this mechanic works: both Crimea and Cherson (duchies) are considered a de jure part of the kingdom of Taurica, which in turn is a de jure part of the ERE (in vanilla). It would have made much more sense to make the southern strip of the Crimea into a separate duchy and kingdom, but they probably steered away from this course because of gameplay reasons.
There are several other instances where this mechanic creates ahistorical situations - Flanders, as I mentioned, being one of them.
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in case someone missed it, you need to own all the counties of a duchy AND the ducal title should either not exist or at be part of your realm for it to start drifting to your (primary) kingdom. in other words, if an external realm still holds the ducal title for your duchy in question for one reason or another, either usurp it or destroy that realm entirely (if it's a vestigial OPM)
Interesting thread, i've played the game for 50 hours and still didn't know CA applies to all de jure territory even if you don't own it.
Is there any way to mod it so that CA applies only to territory you currently own instead of all de jure territory? That would make much more sense for me and it doesn't seem that hard. Imagine if in real world Russia (or Soviet Union) laws would still apply in the countries that it used to own? Or native american laws would apply in United States? I mean come on they used to own that territory it's de jure... lol... Makes no sense, i know it was different back then and all that but i'm not playing this game for historical accuracy so is there a way to mod it? I'd like to know.
Is there any way to mod it so that CA applies only to territory you currently own instead of all de jure territory? That would make much more sense for me and it doesn't seem that hard. Imagine if in real world Russia (or Soviet Union) laws would still apply in the countries that it used to own? Or native american laws would apply in United States? I mean come on they used to own that territory it's de jure... lol... Makes no sense, i know it was different back then and all that but i'm not playing this game for historical accuracy so is there a way to mod it? I'd like to know.
That's not how dejure works, bro. Legally the USSR never owned that land, the owners were signatories to the union (UNION of Soviet Socialist Republics). Defacto, that was not the case, of course. For example, Estonia and Latvia were signatories to the USSR but defacto they had been annexed.
The Indian example is also flawed, as American Indians had no concept of all this legal nonsense and were never a single governing entity that legally possessed all this land.
The Indian example is also flawed, as American Indians had no concept of all this legal nonsense and were never a single governing entity that legally possessed all this land.
Look, as i said i don't care about historical accuracy those examples might've been bad i know, it was just to get the point across...
but my main question is can i mod it so that CA laws apply only to territory currently owned by kingdom or empire instead of de jure territory?
Actually, I think the Kingdom of Trebizond doesn't exist in my game, currently. The Byzantines lost most of that land to the Ilkhanate, and I don't believe the Ilkhanate recreated the titles. If the Kingdom has to exist for it to drift, then that would explain why Cherson is not drifting. Actually, that also explains why Azov and Denmark aren't drifting. Scandinavia isn't created, so I suppose Denmark wouldn't drift. In vanilla, Azov is part of Alania, but in Project Balance, it's part of Cumania (which no longer exists and can't be recreated because it has a special create condition of "never").