Why do I loose naval battles in 1.22.2?

[slackerpants]

Hi, in the latestst patch I seem to be loosing naval battles all the time, and I don't understand why. Here's a typical example which I have experienced a lot recently:

None of us have any naval ideas, all ships (at least mine) were up to date. We both moved in with single stacks. I have the +20% naval engagement ability. Why do I loose this, and loose it so badly? In the battle my threedeckers just went down like nothing.

 

[mag_zbc]

What's your Navy Tradition? For Portugal, I can imagine it's very high, and at 100 it gives +25% Morale Of Navies. Also, any difference in Diplomatic tech? They are 27, so they will have Great Frigates, and the have a lot of them. Are you by any chance on 25?

 

[Dominion]

What's their naval tradition? You could've judged it based on morale differences during the fight.

They probably had 90+ NT. Maybe they even have a naval advisor.

 

[Dominion]

What's your Navy Tradition? For Portugal, I can imagine it's very high, and at 100 it gives +25% Morale Of Navies. Also, any difference in Diplomatic tech?

Heh, ninja'd. I think it's NT as well. Dip tech shouldn't matter at this point anymore. 1768 is kind of a hole.
You get 0.5 morale at best and heavies don't get new classes anymore at that point of the game.

 

[schaedel]

In what order did you move in your stacks? Heavies take 3 Slots, so having 500 heavies in one stack (just an example) is a very bad idea. What is the maximum naval combat width ( I guess you have already reached that by 1768?) If it's similar to land width it should be around 40, so your 32 heavies are even MORE (and therefore: bad) than one "ideal" stack. Ideally you should have "fighting stacks" of Heavy ONLY and each stack should not be bigger than around 20 heavies (as about 13-15 heavies fill out the complete combat width).
Galleys in open water are veryveryvery bad, as are transports.
If you are really desperate and have some corresponding ideas/policies (like 20% light ship combat ability) you could MAYBE use some light ships in combat, but definitely no transports and no galleys in open water (in the Mediterranean it's the other way round, there galleys are way better than heavies, as 3 galleys= 1 heavy and they get heavy combat bonusses in Inland seas)
I guess you "started" with your transports and light ships and moved in your "fighting stacks" later, so that they could not really take part in combat...but I am no expert, so that's a wild guess...

 

[mag_zbc]

In what order did you move in your stacks? Heavies take 3 Slots, so having 500 heavies in one stack (just an example) is a very bad idea. What is the maximum naval combat width ( I guess you have already reached that by 1768?) If it's similar to land width it should be around 40, so your 32 heavies are even MORE (and therefore: bad) than one "ideal" stack. Ideally you should have "fighting stacks" of Heavy ONLY and each stack should not be bigger than around 20 heavies (as about 13-15 heavies fill out the complete combat width).
Galleys in open water are veryveryvery bad, as are transports.
If you are really desperate and have some corresponding ideas/policies (like 20% light ship combat ability) you could MAYBE use some light ships in combat, but definitely no transports and no galleys in open water (in the Mediterranean it's the other way round, there galleys are way better than heavies, as 3 galleys= 1 heavy and they get heavy combat bonusses in Inland seas)
I guess you "started" with your transports and light ships and moved in your "fighting stacks" later, so that they could not really take part in combat...but I am no expert, so that's a wild guess...

He wrote he moved in single stack, and heavy ships always engage first.

 

[Dominion]

In what order did you move in your stacks? Heavies take 3 Slots, so having 500 heavies in one stack (just an example) is a very bad idea. What is the maximum naval combat width ( I guess you have already reached that by 1768?) If it's similar to land width it should be around 40, so your 32 heavies are even MORE (and therefore: bad) than one "ideal" stack. Ideally you should have "fighting stacks" of Heavy ONLY and each stack should not be bigger than around 20 heavies (as about 13-15 heavies fill out the complete combat width).
Galleys in open water are veryveryvery bad, as are transports.
If you are really desperate and have some corresponding ideas/policies (like 20% light ship combat ability) you could MAYBE use some light ships in combat, but definitely no transports and no galleys in open water (in the Mediterranean it's the other way round, there galleys are way better than heavies, as 3 galleys= 1 heavy and they get heavy combat bonusses in Inland seas)
I guess you "started" with your transports and light ships and moved in your "fighting stacks" later, so that they could not really take part in combat...but I am no expert, so that's a wild guess...

He said he moved in one stacks and it was vs heavies and light ships (no galleys) so having them in one stack is actually the better option.

EDIT: damn you're fast

 

[slackerpants]

What's your Navy Tradition? For Portugal, I can imagine it's very high, and at 100 it gives +25% Morale Of Navies. Also, any difference in Diplomatic tech? They are 27, so they will have Great Frigates, and the have a lot of them. Are you by any chance on 25?

I'm at 27 naval tech, same as Portugal. I concede that my navy tradition is very low, like 15. But can naval tradition alone swing that battle? I had a clearly superior force there...

In what order did you move in your stacks? Heavies take 3 Slots, so having 500 heavies in one stack (just an example) is a very bad idea. What is the maximum naval combat width ( I guess you have already reached that by 1768?) If it's similar to land width it should be around 40, so your 32 heavies are even MORE (and therefore: bad) than one "ideal" stack. Ideally you should have "fighting stacks" of Heavy ONLY and each stack should not be bigger than around 20 heavies (as about 13-15 heavies fill out the complete combat width).
Galleys in open water are veryveryvery bad, as are transports.
If you are really desperate and have some corresponding ideas/policies (like 20% light ship combat ability) you could MAYBE use some light ships in combat, but definitely no transports and no galleys in open water (in the Mediterranean it's the other way round, there galleys are way better than heavies, as 3 galleys= 1 heavy and they get heavy combat bonusses in Inland seas)
I guess you "started" with your transports and light ships and moved in your "fighting stacks" later, so that they could not really take part in combat...but I am no expert, so that's a wild guess...

As you can see I lost 27 heavys and only 3 transports so I don't think they got engaged first. And Portugal is the one who was fighting with light ships. And galleys should be better than light even in open water right?

 

[schaedel]

I'm sure there are some wizards who have run simulations and can answer that question based on stats and math. From my gut-feelings i would say no, in open water, galleys are not better than lights, maybe even worse (as I said, just a feeling). Aren't there some rather stupid ideas in the Portugese set concerning light ship combat ability? Or is that Aragon or Genoa, my memory is rather fuzzy regarding that region

 

[Dewra]

I have no answer to why you are losing naval battles. The current naval mechanics are a complete mystery to me, even with similar moral my 30-50 heavies lose to 15-25 heavies and 50 trade ships.

Couple of bad rolls can get your morale down by a lot, because you start losing ships. If you don't reinforce it you gonna lose even with good rolls.

There is a few things you can do though.
1) Always retreat if the battle is going poorly, you lose maybe one third or half of your heavies not all of them.
2) If you want to win, split stacks because of bs engagement width combined with moral loses on reserves.
For example engage with 15 heavies, wait till they start sinking engage 10 more, wait till they are down to 15, add more.
You want Engagement width/3 heavies and a couple of extras in the battle all the time (plus you need to check the 0 morale ones).
Pain in the ass micro compared to the old system, but what can you do.

 

[slackerpants]

I'm sure there are some wizards who have run simulations and can answer that question based on stats and math. From my gut-feelings i would say no, in open water, galleys are not better than lights, maybe even worse (as I said, just a feeling). Aren't there some rather stupid ideas in the Portugese set concerning light ship combat ability? Or is that Aragon or Genoa, my memory is rather fuzzy regarding that region

Nope you can see their national ideas in the screen. Nothing about ships. And light have better speed, but worse cannons. Don't know what to make of that combat-wise, but regardless, heavy outnumbered the light ships should loose I feel.

 

[trojan1234]

I had same problem after MN patch. Naval battle needs micro since then.

We both moved in with single stacks.

This isn't optimal. Guessing you have 32 naval engagement, then optimal fleet composition in not inlands sea is 10 heavy and 2 light ships.
Prepare the rest of your ships next sea zone or nearby port, reinforce as any of your ship sunk in the battle. This way, you will boost your fleet morale constantly while enemy fleet will take morale hit even if they are not on the combat line.

 

[mag_zbc]

But can naval tradition alone swing that battle? I had a clearly superior force there...

Portugal can easily have ~90 NT, so from that alone there's a +18% difference in morale, which is huge. If they also have Naval Reformer advisor, that adds another +10%

 

[slackerpants]

I have no answer to why you are losing naval battles. The current naval mechanics are a complete mystery to me, even with similar moral my 30-50 heavies lose to 15-25 heavies and 50 trade ships.

Couple of bad rolls can get your morale down by a lot, because you start losing ships. If you don't reinforce it you gonna lose even with good rolls.

There is a few things you can do though.
1) Always retreat if the battle is going poorly, you lose maybe one third or half of your heavies not all of them.
2) If you want to win, split stacks because of bs engagement width combined with moral loses on reserves.
For example engage with 15 heavies, wait till they start sinking engage 10 more, wait till they are down to 15, add more.
You want Engagement width/3 heavies and a couple of extras in the battle all the time (plus you need to check the 0 morale ones).
Pain in the ass micro compared to the old system, but what can you do.

Yes I figured it might have to do with something like this... But the AI don't micro like that, so it still surprises me that the win so big!

 

[slackerpants]

I had same problem after MN patch. Naval battle needs micro since then.



This isn't optimal. Guessing you have 32 naval engagement, then optimal fleet composition in not inlands sea is 10 heavy and 2 light ships.
Prepare the rest of your ships next sea zone or nearby port, reinforce as any of your ship sunk in the battle. This way, you will boost your fleet morale constantly while enemy fleet will take morale hit even if they are not on the combat line.

I guess this is the way to do it, but in this engagement they attacked me while I was unloading troops.... Also I don't really want to micro lika that in a game like this.

 

[Dewra]

It's just rolls tbh. The problem is that if you fight to the end and lose you gonna lose it all.
It's kinda funny if you attack 7 lights with 50 heavies they'll escape without losing a ship, but if you fight 100 vs 100 ship battle one of the 100 is going to sink.

The micro sucks but you can "avoid" it by just never fighting naval battles, retreat always if you have to use a navy.

 

[trojan1234]

I guess this is the way to do it, but in this engagement they attacked me while I was unloading troops.... Also I don't really want to micro lika that in a game like this.

It's sad that new system needs more micro. But you don't need to do this all the time, take care of the first naval battle against naval-strong enemy.

 

[slackerpants]

Portugal can easily have ~90 NT, so from that alone there's a +18% difference in morale, which is huge. If they also have Naval Reformer advisor, that adds another +10%

That is true, but I get +10% each from power projection and prestige, which Portugal surely don't. That evens it out a bit. And I have nearly twice their numbers...

 

[slackerpants]

Here's our naval morale...

 

[Stadhouder]

And galleys should be better than light even in open water right?

They shred light ships in inland seas, but in open seas they are about equal.