Why did they even ship the unfinished ascension rework?

[DYNIA]

Because pop assembly is too good not to have.

You can't optimise pops hard enough to overcome the advantage of having the amount extra that assembly, even unoptimised, will give you.

All the other ascensions give you pop assembly alongside pop growth, psionics have to seek it another way and the main way of doing it (building robots) is an antisynergy with the spiritualist attraction.

Psionics gives you a similar amount of output bonuses as other ascensions but fewer pops to do the jobs those bonuses apply to with.

well, you know you can still make robots for psio ?

 

[GloatingSwine]

well, you know you can still make robots for psio ?

Yes, I even said so in my post, but it's an antisynergy with the spiritualist attraction (happiness is stability, less happiness on what is invariably going to be your largest faction is less stability, stability is output).

And as noted, the other ascendancies give you pop assembly without robots.

 

[DYNIA]

Yes, I even said so in my post, but it's an antisynergy with the spiritualist attraction (happiness is stability, less happiness on what is invariably going to be your largest faction is less stability, stability is output).

And as noted, the other ascendancies give you pop assembly without robots.

you can get total 64,8% resources from jobs and fastest ascendency in game, its still much more powerfull than syths, also you can get 20% pop growth from f.xenophobe and 10% from perks and 20% pop growth from coventant ... so yeah, weak ;p

 

[KarsusTheMad]

Yes, I even said so in my post, but it's an antisynergy with the spiritualist attraction (happiness is stability, less happiness on what is invariably going to be your largest faction is less stability, stability is output).

It is a 5% faction happiness penalty. Which, as long as you never research Synthetic tech, will hardly effect your planets output compared to the sheer benefit of just having extra pops. Just build the robots.

you can get total 64,8% resources from jobs and fastest ascendency in game, its still much more powerfull than syths, also you can get 20% pop growth from f.xenophobe and 10% from perks and 20% pop growth from coventant ... so yeah, weak ;p

Quoted for truth. It is absolutely absurd how fast you, as a Teacher of the Shroud, can just have your ascension path on the table and ready to rush down your neighbors, while still pivoting through the Covenant into something more sustainable (like Instrument or Composer); Just be sure to fulfill whatever stupid preference your desired Covenant wants to increase your weight towards it, and then finish attuning to it in 50 years before the Synthetic Enjoyer ever even sees Positronic A.I.

 

[DYNIA]

It is a 5% faction happiness penalty. Which, as long as you never research Synthetic tech, will hardly effect your planets output compared to the sheer benefit of just having extra pops. Just build the robots.


Quoted for truth. It is absolutely absurd how fast you, as a Teacher of the Shroud, can just have your ascension path on the table and ready to rush down your neighbors, while still pivoting through the Covenant into something more sustainable (like Instrument or Composer); Just be sure to fulfill whatever stupid preference your desired Covenant wants to increase your weight towards it, and then finish attuning to it in 50 years before the Synthetic Enjoyer ever even sees Positronic A.I.

you can finish your psi ascendency 10 years after game starts also bonuses for leaders is best in game, like +10 research speed for your scientists

also resources from jobs is insane that give more stability and resources from job over 60% on your main ecumenopolis

 

[Incompetent]

Because pop assembly is too good not to have.

The implicit trade-off with psi ascension now seems to be that you have the worst internal pop growth of any ascension, but you make up for it by simply ascending and conquering (or at least raiding) everyone so early that pop growth from the other ascensions hasn't had time to matter. Longer-term you keep population growing by harvesting pops from other empires, with genetically ascended empires obviously being the ideal harvesting targets. Once you're a blob, the amount of pops you can grow yourself isn't such a big factor because it's hampered anyway by the added cost from existing pops. You may still choose to assemble robots (or at least retain the existing robots you conquered), but the number of extra pops you will end up with as a result of assembling robots yourself isn't as high as you might expect at first glance.

This kind of reasoning doesn't really justify cyber ascension's mediocre pop growth rate, though, except in the case of Driven Assimilators (who obviously have the ability to acquire a lot of pops quickly through conquest, so you could argue they have only weak ascension options as a deliberate balance decision). As far as I can tell, if you're a non-Gestalt or Hive Mind, then cyber is just a worse version of genetic ascension aside for some niche applications of bio+mech trait-stacking (ideally combined with some pop upkeep reduction).

 

[Foromar]

A proper full release process takes several weeks, and having been burned in the past by pushing last minute changes in, I'm not fond of interfering in that process.

Understandable, though you guys really shouldn't have put out the dev diary about psionics then.
By doing that, you gave the impression of actually making further adjustments to the new acensions and then seemingly just abandoned all the other trees.

This hits especially hard for ME's, because they didn't even have an ascension for the last 5 years and now got completely shafted.
For Cybernetic and Synthetic you just cut out the unuseable parts and didn't give them anything in return.
And no, the Crucible Worlds don't count, because those still give less pop gowth, than a singular replicator, for double the pops and upkeep.

 

[Ikael]

I kinda get a bit of where the OP is coming from. Paradox seems to have a very defined methodology and sticks to it, hence no last-minute changes, even if they are minor number tweaks or widely demanded on feedback treads.

As in, from my aficionado ignoramus view, those are very simple things to change, but I am sure that actual programmers with an idea of what they are doing, know the kind of mess that they can get by adding last minutes changes, or that "minor" adjustments can spiral workload out of control.

If I have to guess, at some point they will further fine-tune each ascension, even if they won't introduce sweeping changes like adding covenants or entirely new ascension paths.

As for their current state, they are much, much improved than before the patch, but that doesn't mean that they are perfect:

- Synth ascension is a bit tad "dry" (no special traits, no unique mechanics, etc) and doesn't change machine empires too much
- Bio is in a damn good state right now, save for a couple of special, harvestable traits
- Cybernetics is fine, save for crucible worlds, the clunky "chose robot or organic pop assembly" mechanic, and a couple of missing robot traits
- Psionic is still the weakest, and still my favorite <3

As for pop assembly, I am not opposed to psionic ascension being the "quality over quantity" one (see also psi corp building), but you would need far, far more pop output bonuses in order to overcome their limitations (and if you want to give them pop assembly, it could very well be a quite appropriate finisher for the composer's covenant).

But well, compared to those small quibbles, Ascension Paths are in a much, much better state than before.

 

[The5lacker]

By doing that, you gave the impression of actually making further adjustments to the new acensions and then seemingly just abandoned all the other trees.

"By explaining exactly what you were doing, you gave the impression you were doing far more than you were doing!"

 

[Sutopia]

I kinda get a bit of where the OP is coming from. Paradox seems to have a very defined methodology and sticks to it, hence no last-minute changes, even if they are minor number tweaks or widely demanded on feedback treads.

The argument is weird to say the least. I thought Custodian is the team that should take time to fine tune, not the team that pops new contents in a timely manner (i.e. on a fixed schedule) to make sales. Rushing out a patch that doesn’t make new sales (read: new) doesn’t make any sense to me.

The ascension path has been in its worst state since introduction of Utopia, as the number of allowed traditions and AP never changes, there are already enough “meta” choices that fills all the slots and leave no room of freedom. Every game feels pretty much the same, unless I deliberately choose suboptimal choices, for RP I guess. If I want RP I’d go play DnD already.

 

[grommile]

I thought Custodian is the team that should take time to fine tune, not the team that pops new contents in a timely manner (i.e. on a fixed schedule) to make sales.

The Custodian team is the team that does releases on a semi-fixed cadence to provide customers with bugfixes, balance adjustments, and improvements to material we already have.

The Crisis team is the team that writes new bugs for the Custodians to fix.

 

[Sutopia]

The Custodian team is the team that does releases on a semi-fixed cadence to provide customers with bugfixes, balance adjustments, and improvements to material we already have.

The Crisis team is the team that writes new bugs for the Custodians to fix.

What I’m saying is, should they even have a semi-fixed cadence?

 

[grommile]

What I’m saying is, should they even have a semi-fixed cadence?

Yes, they should.

Seriously, time-based release strategies for maintenance updates work very well. Ask Linus Torvalds.

 

[Sutopia]

Yes, they should.

Seriously, time-based release strategies for maintenance updates work very well. Ask Linus Torvalds.

Team size matters. I would think they’d fit better with SPRINT, a more task based approach. Releasing a half made product never works well.

 

[Starfury]

Team size matters. I would think they’d fit better with SPRINT, a more task based approach. Releasing a half made product never works well.

If the definition of "half made product" is "a few people on the forum aren't happy with the result", you don't need to talk about the approach. It's never going to be finished...

 

[ffsffs1]

I can't for the life of me understand why some people think psionic ascension is still the weakest ascension path. It's quick (and with teachers of the shroud it is the quickest ascension path in the game), telepaths are amazing, and you get the best leaders in the game. With a bit of work you can get the best bonuses to resource output of any ascension, and while the pop growth sucks, you can make up for it by conquering/raiding pops - something psionic ascension puts you in a great position to do.

Biological ascension is very strong and is in a good place. As opposed to psionic ascension which is all about quality over quantity, biological ascension is about quantity over quality. However, you still get good bonuses to research, and natural machinist is a great addition to the game. With overtuned and/or hive minds, you get the best pop growth in the game (at least pre isolated contingency core), and you can unlock biological ascension relatively quickly.

I'm disappointed about synthetic ascension though. While it deserved a nerf, in its current form, I don't see much of a niche for it. It is now the slowest ascension by far, and it no longer has the best growth and/or resource output bonuses. While I would argue it's bonuses are slightly better than biological ascension (and certainly better than cybernetic ascension), the fact that you can unlock biological ascension 30-40 years before synthetic ascension makes biological ascension the more appealing option in almost all circumstances. Ironically, even with the buff to mechanist, it remains a crap origin because of the nerfs to synthetic ascension.

The bonuses to cybernetic ascension are quite weak relative to other three ascensions, but at least it has a niche in trade builds.

 

[grommile]

I would think they’d fit better with SPRINT, a more task based approach.

Sprints are very much time-based. Kanban is task-based.

 

[Ikael]

The argument is weird to say the least. I thought Custodian is the team that should take time to fine tune, not the team that pops new contents in a timely manner (i.e. on a fixed schedule) to make sales. Rushing out a patch that doesn’t make new sales (read: new) doesn’t make any sense to me.

From what I understand, the Custodian team makes fixed, planned updates of already released content. If there are things that are left out, they will be addressed in the next scheduled update, rather than in-between or crammed at the last minute. It might be a bit tad rigid, and it might leave things unaddressed for a long time (see also: spy operations costing influence) but I personally think that the pros outweigh the cons so far.

The ascension path has been in its worst state since introduction of Utopia, as the number of allowed traditions and AP never changes, there are already enough “meta” choices that fills all the slots and leave no room of freedom. Every game feels pretty much the same, unless I deliberately choose suboptimal choices, for RP I guess. If I want RP I’d go play DnD already.

I believe that rather than Ascension Paths, you meant Ascension Perks, which I agree with you (hell, I love to make topics about this very issue, Ascension Perks need an in-depth rework, badly). But the Ascension Paths themselves are better than ever, and the same goes for Tradition trees, even if there is room for improvement, or at the very least, number-tweaking (which devs seem too averse to address if the update does not plan to touch that particular area).

I can't for the life of me understand why some people think psionic ascension is still the weakest ascension path.

I can't speak for others, but in my personal view:

1- It can be quick or it can not, due to its dependence on the rare Psionic tech (unless you take teachers of the shroud).
2- Not everyone raids or conquer pops. Even if you go full early military rush, it rarely can compensate for the lack of pop assembly
3- It is the only ascension with drawbacks and penalties (Covenants)
4- It is the only ascension without pop assembly
5- Telepaths are indeed amazing, yet confined to your "tall" planets, which runs counter to the whole early expansion meta for psionic
6- The hoops needed in order to put them on a similar footing to other ascensions are far from assured (Zro access + Shroud lottery winning technologies + Spiritualist Federation)

That being said, I am extremely happy with the rework. It just needs to buff covenants and generally talking, focus on the balance of its later stages, when they will be competing against other ascension paths.

I'm disappointed about synthetic ascension though. While it deserved a nerf, in its current form, I don't see much of a niche for it. It is now the slowest ascension by far, and it no longer has the best growth and/or resource output bonuses. While I would argue it's bonuses are slightly better than biological ascension (and certainly better than cybernetic ascension), the fact that you can unlock biological ascension 30-40 years before synthetic ascension makes biological ascension the more appealing option in almost all circumstances. Ironically, even with the buff to mechanist, it remains a crap origin because of the nerfs to synthetic ascension.

The bonuses to cybernetic ascension are quite weak relative to other three ascensions, but at least it has a niche in trade builds.

I quite agree with everything you said here. Perhaps synthetic ascension could be the "late bloomer" ascension? But then again, it was nerfed precisely because it was much, much better than the others. At the very least, it would be good for it to have its own special robot traits, for starters. Or perhaps, having more powerful "generic" pops might very well be its own niche, vs bio ascension numbers and cybernetics penchant for pop specialization. But yeah, they need something.

 

[Lorenerd11]

For some strange reason, despite Paradox saying they will fix this, you still can't apply cyborg traits if you haven't researched gene-modding.

It would be fairly easy to simply make the Integrated Anatomy tradition and Gene Tailoring tech both unlock template modification, and just add a tech requirement to adding and removing organic traits specifically.

 

[Sutopia]

From what I understand, the Custodian team makes fixed, planned updates of already released content. If there are things that are left out, they will be addressed in the next scheduled update, rather than in-between or crammed at the last minute. It might be a bit tad rigid, and it might leave things unaddressed for a long time (see also: spy operations costing influence) but I personally think that the pros outweigh the cons so far.


I believe that rather than Ascension Paths, you meant Ascension Perks, which I agree with you (hell, I love to make topics about this very issue, Ascension Perks need an in-depth rework, badly). But the Ascension Paths themselves are better than ever, and the same goes for Tradition trees, even if there is room for improvement, or at the very least, number-tweaking (which devs seem too averse to address if the update does not plan to touch that particular area).



I can't speak for others, but in my personal view:

1- It can be quick or it can not, due to its dependence on the rare Psionic tech (unless you take teachers of the shroud).
2- Not everyone raids or conquer pops. Even if you go full early military rush, it rarely can compensate for the lack of pop assembly
3- It is the only ascension with drawbacks and penalties (Covenants)
4- It is the only ascension without pop assembly
5- Telepaths are indeed amazing, yet confined to your "tall" planets, which runs counter to the whole early expansion meta for psionic
6- The hoops needed in order to put them on a similar footing to other ascensions are far from assured (Zro access + Shroud lottery winning technologies + Spiritualist Federation)

That being said, I am extremely happy with the rework. It just needs to buff covenants and generally talking, focus on the balance of its later stages, when they will be competing against other ascension paths.



I quite agree with everything you said here. Perhaps synthetic ascension could be the "late bloomer" ascension? But then again, it was nerfed precisely because it was much, much better than the others. At the very least, it would be good for it to have its own special robot traits, for starters. Or perhaps, having more powerful "generic" pops might very well be its own niche, vs bio ascension numbers and cybernetics penchant for pop specialization. But yeah, they need something.

You mean the ascension paths have been the most overpowered ever, which is bad because it’s basically ascension perk and tradition slot -1. You’re not gonna be any competitive without picking them and a mandatory pick is not a pick.

Spoiler: The real reason I disabled Utopia from 3.6

This patch rendered void dweller a completely obsolete origin as they now have not enough tradition slots to work with. Adaptability, mercantile, prosperity, expansion, supremacy, domination: that’s already 6. I am forced to steal an ai federation because I can’t have diplomacy tradition, not to mention missing out the liberty to get some nice harmony going.