Why did the Soviet Union and its Empire collapse?

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Originally posted by Propaganda
The USSR fell on it's side because of it's inability to maintain a non-corrupt beaurocracy. Those who were, stole as much as they could, leaving those who worked, with very little of what was actually there. The only man who understood this was Stalin, as in his time, he used to loot and plunder himself, quite well, actually. He set out on his crusade of purges to get rid of much of this cancer, which is mainly why the USSR industrialized itself as amazingly fast as it did. Those who remained, unscathed, shut up and did what they were told. However, when Khruschev and Breznhev showed their faces, they gave the beaurocrats a lot more breathing room, even giving them substantial raises and priviledges. And this is when it started to decay...again. This time, however, no one was there to stop the cancer from spreading. In fact, when Gorbachev came to power, and decided to put a lid on the beaurocracy, what he did was effectively speed the USSR's death, by actually supporting the beaorocracy more than the previous premiers and leaders(eventhough, he said he wanted to get rid of it!).


I don't think you can blame USSR collapse on bureaucracy. As you well know, bureaucratic and corrupt systems can survive for centuries (think China). It was rather bureacracy's (read: Communist Party) inability to defend the state and its interests that was to blame. It is still a mystery to me why millions of Communists (including top officials) did virtually nothing to prevent USSR fast decay. The problem was that Communist Party (mostly due to Kruschev) pretty much replaced the state apparatus and when people stopped believing in Commusism, they stopped believing in the state itself. Very sad, really.:confused:
 

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Originally posted by webbrave



I don't think you can blame USSR collapse on bureaucracy. As you well know, bureaucratic and corrupt systems can survive for centuries (think China). It was rather bureacracy's (read: Communist Party) inability to defend the state and its interests that was to blame. It is still a mystery to me why millions of Communists (including top officials) did virtually nothing to prevent USSR fast decay. The problem was that Communist Party (mostly due to Kruschev) pretty much replaced the state apparatus and when people stopped believing in Commusism, they stopped believing in the state itself. Very sad, really.:confused:

Well, you are correct in your thesis.With the system restructured, due to Khruschev and Breznhev, it became sort of an upside down pyramid, with the nomenklatura controlling most of everything, while the bottom, the workers themselves, controlled nearly nothing, when it should have been the other way around. And this is exactly where the bureaoucratic force comes in. When it controls everything, it does so to push itself up, while keeping the lower stratus(the working class) down, which is exactly the opposite of what communism is supposed to be.
 

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Originally posted by Propaganda


Well, you are correct in your thesis.With the system restructured, due to Khruschev and Breznhev, it became sort of an upside down pyramid, with the nomenklatura controlling most of everything, while the bottom, the workers themselves, controlled nearly nothing

this is true as well, but what is more important is that the Communist Party merged with the state apparatus (whereas before Kruschev it was a dual system) and once the Party weakened and lost all support and credibility so did the state itself.
 

Intosh

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Hi,


SU had no chances to survives when the satellites countries became independant. The fall of communism in Poland, Hungary, the reunification of germany were the signs of a rapid fall of SU itself.

Why ?

Satellites provided cheap, even free, supply of foods, consumers products and others importants supplies without which SU economy cannot survived.

The economics relations between communists countries in the COMECON were base on exchange of goods, and this exchange was greatly in favor of SU. We can even speak of a kind of colonial plunder...

Without these fundamentals supplies, SU cannot feed and equiped itself. Fall was inevitable.


Bye,
 

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Originally posted by Intosh
Hi,


SU had no chances to survives when the satellites countries became independant. The fall of communism in Poland, Hungary, the reunification of germany were the signs of a rapid fall of SU itself.

Why ?

Satellites provided cheap, even free, supply of foods, consumers products and others importants supplies without which SU economy cannot survived.

The economics relations between communists countries in the COMECON were base on exchange of goods, and this exchange was greatly in favor of SU. We can even speak of a kind of colonial plunder...

Without these fundamentals supplies, SU cannot feed and equiped itself. Fall was inevitable.


Bye,

this is nonsense. How did the country survive before the war then? SU had enough resources of its own to be self-sufficient - loss of markets and break of export/import links was rather painful, but couldn't lead to SU collapse.
 

Aetius

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Originally posted by KAP
But the "Welfare State" has not worked. Third World countries have not developed through the assistance programs.
Considering the nature of the assistance programs it isn't surprising, I believe the largest recipients of aid of the USA, Egypt and Israel are hardly using it to benefit the lot of their poor. The Swedish aid program, which I know a lot about, is essentially completely unrealistic and basically gives aid to corrupt dictatorships with appropriate ideology. I believe most aid is probably the same.
BUT, aid does work sometimes: US aid to Europe and Japan after the Second World war and Japanese aid to East Asia.
Let's say the welfare state hasn't worked, AFAIK it has worked quite well: universal education, health care and pension system have been implemented and are still used in most successful countries. I believe the US still has its Medicaid and Social Security.
Socialism (in my view collective ownership by the people) pretty much exists in all developed countries, Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac in the US are if nothing socialism, house loans run by parastatal organisations.

I maintain that the problem in the Soviet Union was because of poor productivity. Nearly everything that was made was of low quality and was actually less worth than the raw materials that went in to it.
 

Intosh

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Originally posted by webbrave


this is nonsense. How did the country survive before the war then? SU had enough resources of its own to be self-sufficient - loss of markets and break of export/import links was rather painful, but couldn't lead to SU collapse.

During the 20's, the NEP (Novaïa Ekonomitcheskaïa Politika) helped a lot until 1929... NEP was instaured in 1921 because Lenine said " a country cannot pass from Middle Age to Communism without a capitalist age". Economy was liberalize, private propriety was authorized, limited free trade and monetary economy, foreign investments and foreign technical help.

After that the first 5 years plan and the forced collectivization begin to ruin the country.

During the 30's, Soviet people survived because if somebody complained, he just disaspeared...

During the war, Soviet people survived because it was The Great Patriotic War, so you can be hungry but the victory over the facists is more important.

In the 50's, Soviet people survived because they have a hope to rebuild a new country and the today difficulties were the war's fault.

Just before WWII and just after ???

Gulags were full of millions of prisoners working free for the government and asking only a little food to survive, it help a lot.


Break of export/import links was very important, because after 1990, nobody in Eastern Europe want no more low quality soviet products and they don't want to sell their products for nothing. After SU fall, Russia became again an important trade partner because ex-satellites countries became equal partners in economic relations, no more exchange products against products, but hard cash payments.

Eastern countries also suffered from break of trade relations, no more cheap oil and no more market for their industrial combinats with their also low quality products, who were very shortly close.

Bye,
 

Halibutt

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Originally posted by webbrave
i don't know Polish well enough to know what "poprzewracalo" is. Can you explain what you just said?
przewracaæ = опрокинутьor перевернуть.
Was that helpful?
Cheers
 

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Originally posted by Halibutt

Was that helpful?
Cheers

well, now I know all the words but don't know what the expression means
;) Is it an idiom?
 

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Originally posted by webbrave


well, now I know all the words but don't know what the expression means
;) Is it an idiom?
It basically means 'they went nuts'. Or 'they are crazy'. Not as a mental state, mind you.
 

Razgovory

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In the US they tell us that Ronald Reagan destroyed the SU by telling them to "tear down that wall" :rolleyes: I had read that De-Stalinaztion had taken alot of the teeth out of security appartus. That allowed corruption to flourish. Of course the guy who wrote that was a KGB major so he might be alittle biased.
 

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Originally posted by Razgovory
In the US they tell us that Ronald Reagan destroyed the SU by telling them to "tear down that wall" :rolleyes:

did he also use his magical fire breath?
did he travel through time to the year 3010 to defeat the evil robot queen to save the human race again?
;)
 

swilhelm73

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Originally posted by Razgovory
In the US they tell us that Ronald Reagan destroyed the SU by telling them to "tear down that wall" :rolleyes:

Well, that is public school education for you... ;)

In actually, American policy from 1980-1989 was key to the eventual fall of the Soviet Union; support for the Mujahadeen, SDI, and the American military build up being the most notable elements.

Still, Reagan's 'wall' speech was one of the all time greats.
 

Aetius

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Originally posted by swilhelm73
In actually, American policy from 1980-1989 was key to the eventual fall of the Soviet Union; support for the Mujahadeen, SDI, and the American military build up being the most notable elements.
The Soviet Leadership insisting on ruining their own country probably helped a bit...
 

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Originally posted by Aetius

The Soviet Leadership insisting on ruining their own country probably helped a bit...

I'd say it was a joint effort;) I sometime wonder who was the real enemy of the SU - the Americans or its own leadership
 

swilhelm73

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Originally posted by Aetius

The Soviet Leadership insisting on ruining their own country probably helped a bit...

True enough, however, consider in comparison that the Khmer Rouge arguably did the worst job *ever* in regards to ruining their own country, and it still took foreign intervention to remove them.
 

Aetius

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Originally posted by swilhelm73
True enough, however, consider in comparison that the Khmer Rouge arguably did the worst job *ever* in regards to ruining their own country, and it still took foreign intervention to remove them.
The Vietnamese communists to the rescue...
 

Halibutt

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Originally posted by webbrave
I'd say it was a joint effort;) I sometime wonder who was the real enemy of the SU - the Americans or its own leadership
Simply everyone: USA, Politburo, most of the nations of the Soviet Union and much of the population of the satellite countries.

The question is whether CCCP had any friends apart from some strange guys like Kadafi, Husain or Castro...
Cheers

P.S. This is not russophobia. Most of us here are russophiles - anticommies.
Cheers