Why did the Soviet Union and its Empire collapse?

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Krasnaya Strela

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Originally posted by Derek Pullem
I suspect that Communists in China will continue for a while yet until there is a real mismatch between the average standard of living in say, China and Vietnam and the internet and easier travel / contacts with the ROTW make it obvious.

The critical mismatch is the one within China, the emerging urban popuation and the poor and getting poorer rural one. Much of the rural poor is male (due to female infanticide and abortion), and is unlikely to get jobs, land or wives. Some of that can be used by the local popwer structures, but I'm afraid that much of the country is a potential time-bomb. The two nations with the most to be frightened of should be taiwan and Russia. Taiwan since it is the best country for the PRCs leaders to use as an enemy if they need an Argentine-style patriotic war (and see where those usually end up), and Russia as China is already occupying vaste part of Russia's empty east, and Chinese labourers are already showing up at farms around the heartland (Saratov oblast).
 
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Originally posted by Warspite
Khimaira is your sig serious or just for game purposes? Is there a movement abroad for Siberia to break away from Russia? Just curious because it caught my eye and I dont know much about it.

He, he, he:D and you wanted it to exist, eh? No, the flag resembles that of Tomskaya oblast' and partly the project flag of Siberian Federal District. There's no such a movement - though i guess lots of people here would like a bit more rights they have now. Moreover, i personally feel that Siberia is still treated as the source for natural resources to please the needs of European part of Russia. And that's not fair, isn't it?:(
 

hughbartlett

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The USSR collapsed because it wasn't really soviet any more. Socialism itself is a really good idea but wherever it was put into practice, it was corrupted by the USSR trying to take the upper hand when it should have been equal! If you look at Ethiopia and Somalia in the 70s you will see the classic example. Also the hostile takeover of Afghanistan and the continued diplomatic farce with the USA can tell alot about why the soviet union fell.
 

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Originally posted by hughbartlett
Socialism itself is a really good idea but wherever it was put into practice...

I've seen/heard a lot of people make similar statements. Why? If there isn't a single, solitary example of socialism ever working in practice how could it possibly be a good idea. There is something inherently wrong with not rewarding initiative and hard work to make sure that the less talented/motivated get an equal share. It is a BAD idea.
 

Aetius

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Originally posted by KAP
I've seen/heard a lot of people make similar statements. Why? If there isn't a single, solitary example of socialism ever working in practice how could it possibly be a good idea. There is something inherently wrong with not rewarding initiative and hard work to make sure that the less talented/motivated get an equal share. It is a BAD idea.

Well every country usually has its share of socialism. It is a bit of a problem how to finance public goods without some sort of funding based on a common pool which everyone has to contribute. Some countries have for-profit hospitals, some countries have for-profit road systems, some have for-profit utilities, some have for-profit religions, and in some countries finance these through the government. I doubt if there is any country that is wholly non-socialist.
Just look at agricultural subsidies that exist throughout the world, which is a huge transfer of cash from more productive segments of the economy to a less productive segment, who have in many cases, if they live in a developed country, the chance to work in more productive sector, but instead demand money to be able to continue their lifestyle.
 

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Originally posted by Aetius


Well every country usually has its share of socialism. It is a bit of a problem how to finance public goods without some sort of funding based on a common pool which everyone has to contribute. Some countries have for-profit hospitals, some countries have for-profit road systems, some have for-profit utilities, some have for-profit religions, and in some countries finance these through the government. I doubt if there is any country that is wholly non-socialist.
Just look at agricultural subsidies that exist throughout the world, which is a huge transfer of cash from more productive segments of the economy to a less productive segment, who have in many cases, if they live in a developed country, the chance to work in more productive sector, but instead demand money to be able to continue their lifestyle.

But the "Welfare State" has not worked. Third World countries have not developed through the assistance programs. Rather, they have been burdened with overpopulation and greater dependence on the richer nations... leading to resentment or outright anger (if not simply a sad state of hopelessness). Within rich societies, the "Welfare State" has caused the emergence of an underclass that does not improve over the course of generations. Instead, they accept their lot in life and actually condemn others in their situation if they try to achieve more from their lives.

Though I am a big believer in helping others, socialist programs do not have the desired affect. They perpetuate a cycle of poverty that becomes ingrained in a segment of the population. The only way "helping hand" programs work are if they move people to work for themselves rather than simply allowing them to do nothing more than accept a free lunch.
 

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Originally posted by KAP


But the "Welfare State" has not worked. Third World countries have not developed through the assistance programs. Rather, they have been burdened with overpopulation and greater dependence on the richer nations... leading to resentment or outright anger (if not simply a sad state of hopelessness). Within rich societies, the "Welfare State" has caused the emergence of an underclass that does not improve over the course of generations. Instead, they accept their lot in life and actually condemn others in their situation if they try to achieve more from their lives.

Though I am a big believer in helping others, socialist programs do not have the desired affect. They perpetuate a cycle of poverty that becomes ingrained in a segment of the population. The only way "helping hand" programs work are if they move people to work for themselves rather than simply allowing them to do nothing more than accept a free lunch.

How can you say these things?!? Being from Sweden I must strongly protest! Our welfare state has produced one of the best and wealthiest societies around, and the system helped people advance themselves physically, spiritually and economically. Also, by virtually removing the possibility of being different and choosing your own path so much unnecessary stress and anxiety has been avoided! Why, socialist Sweden is probably, nay almost certainly as close to the perfect society we will ever get on Earth!

;)
 

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Originally posted by KAP


But the "Welfare State" has not worked. Third World countries have not developed through the assistance programs. Rather, they have been burdened with overpopulation and greater dependence on the richer nations... leading to resentment or outright anger (if not simply a sad state of hopelessness). Within rich societies, the "Welfare State" has caused the emergence of an underclass that does not improve over the course of generations. Instead, they accept their lot in life and actually condemn others in their situation if they try to achieve more from their lives.

Though I am a big believer in helping others, socialist programs do not have the desired affect. They perpetuate a cycle of poverty that becomes ingrained in a segment of the population. The only way "helping hand" programs work are if they move people to work for themselves rather than simply allowing them to do nothing more than accept a free lunch.

There is nothing "socialist" about the Welfare State. State-sponsored social security was Bismarck's idea. The Continental Welfare State is really a Warfare State, a quid pro qou between the government and the subjects saying that as long as you work, behave and go to war the government will cater for your needs if you don't manage to do it on your own.

It's only you when you construct the public handouts as "rights" rather than "privileges" that you develop a permament underclass. In Euroep the only country with an historically large segment of this kind of people is Britain.

But the "free lunch" was invented by bleeding-heart anglo liberals like Lord Beveridge and Eleanor Roosevelt.
 

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that would probably explain why Sweden has the highest suicide rate in the world and has one of the highest divorce rates (along with the US and Russia). :D

Originally posted by The Brain


How can you say these things?!? Being from Sweden I must strongly protest! Our welfare state has produced one of the best and wealthiest societies around, and the system helped people advance themselves physically, spiritually and economically. Also, by virtually removing the possibility of being different and choosing your own path so much unnecessary stress and anxiety has been avoided! Why, socialist Sweden is probably, nay almost certainly as close to the perfect society we will ever get on Earth!

;)
:D
 

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Originally posted by webbrave
that would probably explain why Sweden has the highest suicide rate in the world and has one of the highest divorce rates (along with the US and Russia). :D

:D
I believe Hungary and Finland still proudly carry their titles of highest-suicide-rates coutries, since the beginning of censuses;)
 

Jools

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Originally posted by The Brain


How can you say these things?!? Being from Sweden I must strongly protest! Our welfare state has produced one of the best and wealthiest societies around, and the system helped people advance themselves physically, spiritually and economically. Also, by virtually removing the possibility of being different and choosing your own path so much unnecessary stress and anxiety has been avoided! Why, socialist Sweden is probably, nay almost certainly as close to the perfect society we will ever get on Earth!

;)

Yes, Brain's healthy sarcasm always saves the day. Man, you're on of my favorite posters here :) I read a few (political) books about Sweden and they're very good government controlled education system :D
 

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Originally posted by Jools


Yes, Brain's healthy sarcasm always saves the day. Man, you're on of my favorite posters here :) I read a few (political) books about Sweden and they're very good government controlled education system :D

J, you are too kind. :)

Sadly, unlike the SU the Swedish education system is still with us. Aaaargh... It seems I always bust a few blood vessels when I think of this. Oh well.
 

Halibutt

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1) No private property. If something belongs to everyone, it belongs to noone. Thus noone cared for the factories, farms, flats, streets... This is highly unefficient economically.
2) No way to force people to love the system. Especially those of non-russian origin.
3) No way to impose real communism. Communism as a system has only one chance for a success - it must be everywhere in the world. Otherwise - it cannot be real communism because there must be some import of goods that are not available at home. If there is an import, there must be two different economical systems in one country. One is centrally planned "you-work-you-get-for-free" system, the other one aimed at collecting foreign hard currency and organizing the import. And that cannot work. ASAII.
4) Relatively opened borders. You cannot make your people think that they live in paradise if some of them have seen the other side of the Iron Curtain. And you have to send them abroad, because of -number 3-
And many, many more.
Cheers
 

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The USSR fell on it's side because of it's inability to maintain a non-corrupt beaurocracy. Those who were, stole as much as they could, leaving those who worked, with very little of what was actually there. The only man who understood this was Stalin, as in his time, he used to loot and plunder himself, quite well, actually. He set out on his crusade of purges to get rid of much of this cancer, which is mainly why the USSR industrialized itself as amazingly fast as it did. Those who remained, unscathed, shut up and did what they were told. However, when Khruschev and Breznhev showed their faces, they gave the beaurocrats a lot more breathing room, even giving them substantial raises and priviledges. And this is when it started to decay...again. This time, however, no one was there to stop the cancer from spreading. In fact, when Gorbachev came to power, and decided to put a lid on the beaurocracy, what he did was effectively speed the USSR's death, by actually supporting the beaorocracy more than the previous premiers and leaders(eventhough, he said he wanted to get rid of it!).
 

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Originally posted by EUfan


"Bo w dupach im sie poprzewracalo!!!"

Sorry......

i don't know Polish well enough to know what "poprzewracalo" is. Can you explain what you just said?