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Secret Master

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According to Barbarossa, the Soviet armies needed to be destroyed within a couple of hundred kilometres of the border causing the Soviet union to collapse or a simple advance without significant resistance to the Volga line. This means that Barbarossa met its military objectives spectacularly.

They didn't destroy enough, though. They destroyed what they thought the Soviets had, but they didn't destroy the Red Army, which was the point of doing the whole "couple of hundred kilometers" thing.

It's like saying, "I promise to eat this steak." You plan on eating a 12-14 ounce steak, but when the waiter brings it to you, it's 24 ounces. You eat 16 ounces, but you didn't fulfill your promise to eat the steak.
 
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Gethsemani

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The disastrous failure to assess the true military strength of the Soviet Union is hard to fathom, but then again, how would you collect all of that scattered information. The Soviet Union was heavily decentralized, which makes it difficult for an insider to control, but makes it even harder for an outsider to spy on and get reliable information on anything outside of the immediate vicinity. There are a LOT of vicinities, and a lot less spies. Ultimately, the Germans destroyed more of the Soviet army than they thought existed. It wasn't even close to being enough. The ability of Stalin to prevent panic and the dissolution of the state under the stresses of losing those early battles was enough to turn the "improbable" into the "impossible" for Germany.

On the contrary, the USSR was heavily centralized. Due to the obsessive and paranoid culture of the Communist Party, pretty much all information, especially about the army and industry, ended up with the leadership. STAVKA was supposed to know everything about its' respective military units, though in theory the widespread corruption in the Red Army created great discrepancies between the numbers STAVKA got and what was actually true in the field.

What's more pertinent to Germany's problem are three things:
1) The USSR was a police state. Reading private letters, eavesdropping on conversations and wiretapping phones of medium and high ranking officials was the rule, not the exception. The Soviet leadership, Stalin in particular, was paranoid. Information was severely restricted and compartmentalized. This reason would hold true for most of the Cold War too, which partially explains why Western intelligence agencies had such a hard time getting good intel out of the USSR.
2) The Great Purge removed the chance of infiltrating the Red Army. Whatever or not an actual conspiracy against Stalin and the Communist Party actually existed, the purges made sure that any foreign infiltrators were unable to operate, if they weren't outright killed to begin with. The level of fear and paranoia in the Red Army prior to WW2 was insane, far above the already high levels found in civilian Soviet society. To be the agent of a foreign state in an organization where even unfounded accusations often led to imprisonment or death was to play Russian Roulette every time you acted even slightly suspicious.
3) German intelligence gathering was very never good. The Abwehr's biggest claim to fame is the number of double agents that double crossed it. German military intelligence had a propensity towards underestimating its' enemies and everywhere except on the operational and tactical level (where the Wehrmacht was very proficient in reconnaissance) German intelligence gathering efforts were sub par compared to the efforts of its' enemies.

The initial stages of the invasion were a huge tactical success and a significant strategic one for Germany, but were simply insufficient on a Grand Strategy level. The German army pulled off a miracle, but found that several more of such miracles were required. The Soviets replaced their losses and just kept fighting. Other nations' armies reinforced understrength divisions in the field; Germany waited until its divisions were reduced to combat ineffectiveness, then pulled them back as a unit to receive replacements and rest. Until they reached that pathetic state, the Germans typically pulled their skilled technical and support personnel off their normal assignments in those divisions and threw them onto the front lines in desperation, where they were chewed up almost as quickly as raw recruits would have been. You can train and replace riflemen in a matter of a couple of weeks or months, but training and replacing the technical support elements takes years. Germany never recovered. In essence, Germany's armed forces "ate" their own logistical tails. While it can work to provide a final push in a short war, it's a recipe for disaster in a long campaign.

Germany also had really small "front line" contingents, even in their front line infantry divisions. Out of 16,000 men in an infantry division, only 3,000 or so were riflemen and another 1,000 or so front line support like machine gunners and pioneers. This meant that German divisions quickly lost their fighting capability because even moderate losses would take large tolls on their front line strength. Compared to a Soviet divisions where more than 2/3rds of the infantry division personnel were riflemen or front line support. This allowed the Soviet divisions to absorb far more casualties before being rendered combat ineffective.
 
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krieger11b

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No, but they would be rallying to protect England. If you look up the gallup polls taken in 1941, the American public was completely fine with nationalizing industries, breaking strikes at defense industries, American ships guarded by the American navy transporting weapons to the UK, increasing taxation to pay for an increased national defense budget, getting involved in the war if a Central/South American country was invaded or aligned with Germany (which they thought Germany was trying to do) and more. This was at the very start of 1941, and it only intensified as the months passed, eventually being in favor of declaring war on Japan if they invaded the DEI, and believed that making sure that Germany didn't win the war was more important than staying out of it.

Polling in the US wasn't really all that reliable at the time.

Dewey.jpg


Now there were some influential people that were intensely anti fascist and wanted war. Typically those too old or with too many dependents to actually fight the war aka Chicken Hawks as we call them in the US. However if there was as much support for the war as you say then congress and the president wouldn't not have kept making promises to stay out of the war and being very careful about US involvement.
No, I've seen an actual translation of a report from the German officer in charge of converting Soviet railways for German use. The different gauge was never the issue - it was in fact ridiculously easy to resolve. Just pull out all the bolts, get the men to lift the ties and move it a couple of feet, put the bolts back in, and suddenly you have German-compatible gauge in just five minutes. All this can be done very quickly even with unskilled labor.

Yeah but we are talking thousands of kilometers of rail, that isn't going to be done faster than the Wehrmacht was going to need heavy resupply.
 
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ringhloth

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Polling in the US wasn't really all that reliable at the time.

Dewey.jpg


Now there were some influential people that were intensely anti fascist and wanted war. Typically those too old or with too many dependents to actually fight the war aka Chicken Hawks as we call them in the US. However if there was as much support for the war as you say then congress and the president wouldn't not have kept making promises to stay out of the war and being very careful about US involvement.


Yeah but we are talking thousands of kilometers of rail, that isn't going to be done faster than the Wehrmacht was going to need heavy resupply.
The reason that FDR couldn't declare war was because Americans were still only in favor of a defensive war. However, judging from other poll data, I'm certain that America would have come to Britain's aid had England been invaded.
 

ObssesedNuker

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Yes, in the Spring and the Fall the work is far less efficient because of mud. Everything is slower. Everything is harder. However, something is better than nothing. Inefficient work still makes money.

In spring in Russia, the work becomes almost downright impossible. The mud is capable of swallowing tanks.

And I mean that literally...

a9cw7bC.jpg
 
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krieger11b

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The reason that FDR couldn't declare war was because Americans were still only in favor of a defensive war. However, judging from other poll data, I'm certain that America would have come to Britain's aid had England been invaded.
With what? The US military strength was downright pathetic in 1940. We could send more naval ships but that wasn't the UK's problem to begin with.
 

ringhloth

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With what? The US military strength was downright pathetic in 1940. We could send more naval ships but that wasn't the UK's problem to begin with.
More arms, planes, probably a small army (2-3 corps?) commanded by the cream of the crop. It wouldn't have been large, but it would be enough to tip the balance of power against Germany, even if Britain wasn't building a single plane, and had enough of a navy to protect its own convoys but not interdict the German convoys. Sealion, just with British assets, is already nearly impossible, but with even a few US planes and guns? Besides, Sealion probably wouldn't have even meant the end of British resistance. Gibraltar, the Suez, India, Aden, the Horn... all of those have to fall for the British to be conclusively out of the war. Even then, the US could still send huge amounts of lend-lease to the Soviets, and maybe even carried out a much less effective Operation Torch.
 

Secret Master

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In spring in Russia, the work becomes almost downright impossible. The mud is capable of swallowing tanks.

And I mean that literally...

a9cw7bC.jpg

holy_grail_listen_herbert.png


"The Premier said it was daft to take an armored division into the mud. But I did it anyway. It sank into the mud. So, I sent another armored division. It sank into the mud. I sent yet another one. It was destroyed by enemy fire, then sank into the mud. But the fourth tank division stayed in place.

And that's what your going to get, lad. The best tank division in STAVKA."
 
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holy_grail_listen_herbert.png


"The Premier said it was daft to take an armored division into the mud. But I did it anyway. It sank into the mud. So, I sent another armored division. It sank into the mud. I sent yet another one. It was destroyed by enemy fire, then sank into the mud. But the fourth tank division stayed in place.

And that's what your going to get, lad. The best tank division in STAVKA."

:D YES!!!!

3) German intelligence gathering was very never good. The Abwehr's biggest claim to fame is the number of double agents that double crossed it.

I thought Abwehr's biggest claim was being RUN by a double agent who attempted to undermine the government. And this was the primary intelligence agency of the Third Reich.
 
G

Gethsemani

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I thought Abwehr's biggest claim was being RUN by a double agent who attempted to undermine the government. And this was the primary intelligence agency of the Third Reich.

You know, I totally forgot that Canaris was a double agent. Just goes to show how incredibly incompetent Abwehr was.
 

phantomrider

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More arms, planes, probably a small army (2-3 corps?) commanded by the cream of the crop. It wouldn't have been large, but it would be enough to tip the balance of power against Germany, even if Britain wasn't building a single plane, and had enough of a navy to protect its own convoys but not interdict the German convoys. Sealion, just with British assets, is already nearly impossible, but with even a few US planes and guns? Besides, Sealion probably wouldn't have even meant the end of British resistance. Gibraltar, the Suez, India, Aden, the Horn... all of those have to fall for the British to be conclusively out of the war. Even then, the US could still send huge amounts of lend-lease to the Soviets, and maybe even carried out a much less effective Operation Torch.

I think you tremendously overestimate the capabilities of the US in early WWII. As late as 1939-40 the US army was at 100,000 men (hardly 1 corps total). By the end of 1942, the US had an army in North Africa that really did not perform very well against a German/Italian army that was in an impossible strategic position (think Kasserine Pass). In the Pacific, the US had a Marine division on Guadalcanal and another equivalent division or 2 in New Guinea and that was the best the US could do. In 1942, on the oceans, the Japanese were giving the US all it could handle and more despite the victory at Midway and only by the end of the year was there hope that the battle of the Atlantic would go to the Allies. Only in 1943 did things really start going in favor of the western allies with decent performances by the army in Europe against the Germans in the Med (decent not great), the start of a real strategic bombing campaign and the build up that would allow Overlord. In the Pacific, the new naval construction started to come through along with improved fighting capabilities of Marines and Army against the Japanese plus some of the US technology got much better and the US Sub campaign really took its toll. It is really hard to see what the US could have contributed to a defense of the UK against a German invasion in 1940 or even 1941 other than to add to the "bag size" of prisoners taken (think Phillipines and death march of 1941-2 fighting there). Even Brewster Buffalos and P-40s, the US frontline aircraft which were in short supply would have only added humor for the Luftwaffe compared to the Hurricanes and Spitfires the Brits already had (but not enought).
 
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By the end of 1942, the US had an army in North Africa that really did not perform very well against a German/Italian army that was in an impossible strategic position (think Kasserine Pass).


The US army in North Africa lost one battle. A month later they won a battle against the same enemy. I could just as easily say:

The German Army in North Africa performed pathetically. From March onwards, they were outfought at every turn. You expect them to beat the British and American troops?
 

phantomrider

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The US army in North Africa lost one battle. A month later they won a battle against the same enemy. I could just as easily say:

The German Army in North Africa performed pathetically. From March onwards, they were outfought at every turn. You expect them to beat the British and American troops?

I agree mostly -- but remember the March you are talking about is in 1943 -- not 1942 or 1941 or 1940. By the end of the campaign the US Army was into the process of becoming a very good force. Also to defend the German's Italians a little bit when you are cut off and out of supply it is really difficult to fight a modern war of manuever very well which was their strategic situation at the time.
 

keynes2.0

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I agree mostly -- but remember the March you are talking about is in 1943 -- not 1942 or 1941 or 1940. By the end of the campaign the US Army was into the process of becoming a very good force. Also to defend the German's Italians a little bit when you are cut off and out of supply it is really difficult to fight a modern war of manuever very well which was their strategic situation at the time.

Okay, but it's not like the German supply situation would have been great either considering this is a Sealion scenario we are discussing. You aren't going to see much of a blitzkreig in southern England when you dont even have trucks, let alone Panzers.
 

Denkt

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The qualitative difference between the countries armies on the large scale was very smal. That Germany had some form of super trained army or that Soviet army was extremely badly trained are just myths.

German leadership was also not really superior to the others.

Equipments was mainly about tradeoff then about pure superiority.
 
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phantomrider

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Okay, but it's not like the German supply situation would have been great either considering this is a Sealion scenario we are discussing. You aren't going to see much of a blitzkreig in southern England when you dont even have trucks, let alone Panzers.

Sure, I agree with that too. If Sealion were to succeed (from the German point of view) the channel had to be open for German resupply and reinforcement. A few divisions of paratroopers supplied and reinforced by Ju-52s via the air were not going to allow a German take over of the UK. The Germans had to be able to cross the channel, take significant port or two and use it to move boats, barges, ships loaded with reinforcements and supplies into/onto British soil. I don't think the Chunnel or a bridge or two was feasible. Otherwise, the germans have too few people and bullets on the ground to subdue the local population. Most likely the Sealion operations would succeed or fail within the first week or two (if it succeeds there would be a very long "mopping up" phase because even though England, Scotland and Wales are not "enormous" there is still a lot of territory to "pacify".
The other point is could would the US help (declare war of Germany) if the invasion actually happened and if they did could the US effect anything. (My opinion is probably not -- It takes 10 days to sail the Atlantic and at no time during 1940 did the US have an army with weapons that could "locked and loaded (on a ship)" that could get to the battle before it was decided. Even the navy would have been hard pressed to deploy parts of the Atlantic Fleet to Britain (to presumably try to "close" the Channel to German supplies and reinforcement if the Royal Navy couldn't do it.
 
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Axe99

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Sure, I agree with that too. If Sealion were to succeed (from the German point of view) the channel had to be open for German resupply and reinforcement. A few divisions of paratroopers supplied and reinforced by Ju-52s via the air were not going to allow a German take over of the UK. The Germans had to be able to cross the channel, take significant port or two and use it to move boats, barges, ships loaded with reinforcements and supplies into/onto British soil. I don't think the Chunnel or a bridge or two was feasible. Otherwise, the germans have too few people and bullets on the ground to subdue the local population. Most likely the Sealion operations would succeed or fail within the first week or two (if it succeeds there would be a very long "mopping up" phase because even though England, Scotland and Wales are not "enormous" there is still a lot of territory to "pacify".
The other point is could would the US help (declare war of Germany) if the invasion actually happened and if they did could the US effect anything. (My opinion is probably not -- It takes 10 days to sail the Atlantic and at no time during 1940 did the US have an army with weapons that could "locked and loaded (on a ship)" that could get to the battle before it was decided. Even the navy would have been hard pressed to deploy parts of the Atlantic Fleet to Britain (to presumably try to "close" the Channel to German supplies and reinforcement if the Royal Navy couldn't do it.

I agree that the US' capacity to assist the UK on the ground and in the air would have been limited, but the US had either the second-most powerful or most powerful navy in the world at the time (I'm not sure when they became top dog - I suspect with the ship building program replacements post-Midway, but they were still extremely powerful). If, in the very unlikely event, Germany had managed to damage the RN enough to allow Sealion in the first place, they could find themselves on the wrong end of the USN smashing up their beachheads (which is by far the greatest assistance they could provide in any event).