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Dark Jakkaru

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@Dark Jakkaru, @Opanashc , @D Inqu , and @Gethhunter

You have all made many validate points, and in some degree, changed my outlook on Eastern Front Red Army tactics. I think we can all agree to disagree on certain aspects.

As heated as the arguments have been, the forum is better with differant views.

I can't speak for everyone else but I can say all I can make my statements are based off of the several volumes of David M. Glantz's books (such as Smolensk and Stalingrad trilogies as well as Red storm over the Balkans). These are of course based off of new sources which by no means is the final say as David Glantz is only one man. If there is one summary that explains his work it is the 1.5 to 2 hour discussion of the war on youtube which is a good summary considering having this many books is expensive and not readily accessible. All I can do is highlight the new sources which paint a better picture on the field of what's happening (or ground truth) which was largely inaccessible to the memoirs or recollection done by various generals. As Glantz says, there are legions of mistakes in the historical record.

Of course, when it comes to video games like HOI IV (why we are of course here :) ), I don't want to necessarily remove the sandbox nature and welcome very much a player doing something outside the box. I never liked being hamstrung to kick off certain events even though I wanted to do something different than what happened in HOI 3. Hopefully everything syncs out well enough as so far it certainly looks slick! Can't wait for a cold war expansion!!
 

Xyrion

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Great thread, very interesting read.

Shfting the focus a bit to the Soviets as well as from strictly military considerations to an interesting notion on societal considerations, industry and potlitics that are major reasons for the Soviets capability of continuing resistance, simply because I find it a missing field in this thread.


What we have to remember with the German miscalculation, besides the number of Soviet divisions, logistics, infrastructure as have already been brought up.
The Germans severely underestimated the 'national unity' and the political stability of Soviet society. We have to remember that this was a people who had been subjected for 2 decades with several political campings in an effort to create "the soviet man". Its wrong to see that as an empty maxim simply done by the communist party, the strive for political indoctrination seems by most accounts to have had a great effect. Naturally not as complete as the Soviet authorities or defenders would have you believe.

I saw someone earlier in the thread commenting that the Soviet civilian population was just like westerners, but this would in my mind be to make the same flaw that the Germans did in 1941.

The earlier 5-year plans, heavy political campaigning, terror, for more than a decade had made it a norm for the civilian population to accept sever hardships in the service of the state. We see people quite quickly singing up en masse, we see for the major parts of the war people working 10-12hr shifts in crudely constructed (or not even fully constructed) factories. Living of very little food and huge amounts of people living in earthen dugouts. Even with these conditions dissidence doesn't seem to ever become a major issue. Like someone said earlier in the thread, the dissident existing in the last two decades of the USSRs existent simply was not a factor during the war years.
For a better look at specifically the work of the soviet homefront during the war (and before that) I recommend Lennart Samuelssons "Tankograd"

The strong political indoctrination that was a result of the communist experiment will also help to explain the question of why the soviets seemed to have such greater reserves of manpower compared to the Axis, even though this difference is much greater than simple demographics can show you. The Soviets where simply able to quickly mobilize a huge amount of their population for the war-effort, and people accepted very sever hardships. This is where you get the great difference in available manpower.


From my understanding the Germans ultimately bet that the destruction of the RKKA west of the Dniepr, in a few lighting campaigns would show the weakness of the Soviet regime to the soviet population and this in turn would create political turmoil against the regime. Which in turn would lead to a breakdown in effective resistance, soviet infighting and a possible peace deal with whatever government remained in power.

For you guys wondering WHAT the Germans where thinking, with all the obvious problems of logistics etc. I think the German high command betting on a similar outcome to the Russian defeat in WW1 seems like a plausible one.
From a 'political' point of view this is Germanys critical mistake, the Soviet people where never really going to throw in the towel.


Deduction on possible German reasoning is my own but the info you'll get from plenty of authors writing about civilian, political and industrial history of the USSR. Samuelsson does a great job with that, Alexievitchs books are very much just about stuff like that. Not sure about more stuff published in english though.

Just wanted to give a bit of different perspective from the regular military one. Naturally as many of you have you can explain the failure of Barbarossa with many factors and perspectives but I just wanted to introduce another one. Im often disheartened by how some authors leave out quite important things or frankly have poor knowledge on the more societal/political part of the war, even good ones.


@Oakfan I suspect your original view of the Political Commissar role might have come from bunching them in with the "Special departments", the NKVD staff that where set to keep tabs on the army. :) Its a common mistake. But NKVD troops in the army and Political Commissars are two different institutions.
 
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D Inqu

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at 1sep before kiew, germans had in south the best possible to defend line in 1941 possible.
False. Without capturing Kiev, the German position was very poor. The 500k force at Keiv was well supplied and was on the Western side of the Dnieper.
in north, germans were in the last line of "friendly" territory.
I have no idea what you mean by "friendly" territory, but the goal in the North was to capture Lenigrad, or at least isolate it, as it was the second largest city and a major industrial centre.
The order from OKH was now to switch central, 400km from moskau away, and this order wasn't given at first 1.september.
Yes, having suffered too many casualties for little gain, AG Centre's offensive has stopped by 1st of September.
It stopped every big advance and pushing until the 2.october and the start of Taifun.
The Soviets stopped AG Centre's advance.
Simply spoken, it gave the soviets 6 weeks to dig in the 400km between smolensk and moskau.
No, it allowed to the Germans to clear their flansk and secure more routes by which supply could be delivered. Without this, there was no chance of further advance on Moscow.
possible counteroffensive at kiew
It wasn't just possible, it was guaranteed.
the 500k troops, if they wanted to push against central, would open at the same moment they flank alongeside the DNEPR, and would open army group south to counterattack them.
Army group south could do little to help when Soviets troops attacked. It happened in reality. The Bryansk Front tried an offensive primed to start in early September. Historically, it failed because that's where Guderian was there, moving south as he was ordered. If Kiev did not happen, these attack would continue.
Your supply problem: Operation Taifun run 2 weeks after start in october in more or less in a no supply situation,
Still much better than the hypothetical drive to Moscow hnging on a single road.
In my opion it was the moment germans had to cancel taifun.
Which would be basically accepting the war is lost. Again, without the initial successful advance on Moscow, the Soviet would have more troops for their counteroffensive.
Order 33 coast the german 6 weeks with good roads for supply.
Not roads, road. 1 road. Not that good a road. And which could not remotely sustain the supply requirements of the German force.
At 14 to 17. oct . 663.000 POW at Wjasma and Brjansk,
This number is complete fantasy.
This battle would been happen without order 33 6 weeks earlier
No way whatsoever. The reason the Vyazma-Bryansk success happened was because the Germans secured several different supply lines and therefore had flexibility where and how to attack. Also because the offensive used all three panzer groups. Neither was possible in September.
at mid august 1941
Mid August 1941, AG Centre was fighting off major attacks by Soviet forces and was losing ability to fight at an alarming rate.
Far eastern soviet army group: the far eastern soviet army group got ther march order from mirmansk to muskau.
If you think Murmansk is in the far east, I really having nothing to add.
 
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Opanashc

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Why did Bolsheviks gain power? In Tsarist Russia, child mortality was 43%(!), had a caste system, huge corruption problem, so on and so forth. Under the Bolsheviks life was getting better. People saw that, people fought for that, enduring temporary hardships for the sake of the better future.
 
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Lamahorse

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Xyrion, I think the actions of the Germans had a huge part to play on the unity of the Soviet State. Had the Germans came as liberators and had they actively recruited amongst the millions of PoWs that they had taken, they would have had a real impact on the course of the war in the East. Remember, the 'White Army' that they eventually formed in 1944 was a very effective fighting force considering that the Red Army executed traitors!

The German Army needed manpower to hold and conquer Russia.

Honestly, I don't think Germany could have ever won in the East. Had the USSR collapsed, German troops would have been overstretched just trying to police the vast expanse.
 
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Opanashc

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Xyrion, I think the actions of the Germans had a huge part to play on the unity of the Soviet State. Had the Germans came as liberators and had they actively recruited amongst the millions of PoWs that they had taken, they would have had a real impact on the course of the war in the East. Remember, the 'White Army' that they eventually formed in 1944 was a very effective fighting force considering that the Red Army executed traitors!
"Effective fighting force" my ass! Rapists, alcoholics, only good enough for occupational duties, and not even good at that!
 
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aqvamare

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If you think Murmansk is in the far east, I really having nothing to add.

Changed to vladiwostok, mistakes happens, thx.

False. Without capturing Kiev, the German position was very poor. The 500k force at Keiv was well supplied and was on the Western side of the Dnieper.
The big difference between our two views. 500k in Kiew, could they sucessful attack, yes or no. You say Yes, I say No, not in 1941.

I have no idea what you mean by "friendly" territory, but the goal in the North was to capture Lenigrad, or at least isolate it, as it was the second largest city and a major industrial centre.
"friendly territory, areas were the native majority of citizien support you. In the north it was estland, lettland and lithauia. In the south the western ukraine in 1941. were germans were seen as liberator, not at conquerer.

Yes, having suffered too many casualties for little gain, AG Centre's offensive has stopped by 1st of September.
The Soviets stopped AG Centre's advance.
Wrong, order 33 at 19.jul stopped the advance of germans, which removed the main tank forces until october from central area. Soviets only fought so hard as possible to get a break in germans way to muscowy, and Hitler gave them the needed break.

No, it allowed to the Germans to clear their flansk and secure more routes by which supply could be delivered. Without this, there was no chance of further advance on Moscow.
It wasn't just possible, it was guaranteed.
1 road is enough, ardennen was build on 1 road. And the gamble worked. There flanks were secure, the troops from kiew would never reach the line minsk smolensk without getting encircled from armygroup southern.

Army group south could do little to help when Soviets troops attacked. It happened in reality. The Bryansk Front tried an offensive primed to start in early September. Historically, it failed because that's where Guderian was there, moving south as he was ordered. If Kiev did not happen, these attack would continue.
Bryansk would still happen without kiew, simply to cut of the suply lines to kiew which were running over this town. But it would not happen kiew-> bryansk, it would happen smolensk->byansk. So not at beginn of october, it would happen at somewhere in mid august. and at this time, so only soviet troops ready for a counterattack were the troops in kiew which needed to give up kiew for this counterattack.
Which would be basically accepting the war is lost. Again, without the initial successful advance on Moscow, the Soviet would have more troops for their counteroffensive.
Not roads, road. 1 road. Not that good a road. And which could not remotely sustain the supply requirements of the German force.
Of course it was " war lost". that is the reason why we discuss in this thread. order 33 and the splitting cost germans the war. The only question is, would have been a push and even concentration of the push to muscovy at jul 1941 the better alternative, even when on paper the more risky alternative.
Mid August 1941, AG Centre was fighting off major attacks by Soviet forces and was losing ability to fight at an alarming rate.
mid august 1941, AG central was fighting off major attacks, because order 33 robbed them there majority of attack force. They had to go in defence stance during the time mid jul to beginn of occtober.

Hitler distrust his generals in 1940 and 1941 two times, which changed the war. 24. Mai 1940 at Dünkirchen, were his stop order made the dig in and rescue possible.
And in 19.jul.1941, were order 33 splittet AG centreal and robbed them there main attack force.

in both case, the frontline commander in charge open disagree with him. order 33 even so hard that they generals flyed back to germany into the OKH to change hilters order. No sucess. And in both case the enemy got the time to dig in and prepare.

---

In both cases Hilter worked directly against german army doctrine, that frontline commander have the desision of advance and retreat. A german soldier learns, a Order is. Take Point A. how you reach point A, it is your desion.

A american and a soviet soldier learns, Take point A, go over point B and C. Point D and E are no option, even when point B is a maschinegun chokepoint.

-----

Simply spoken, if germans wanted to win barbarossa, they needed muscovy so early and hard as possible. they failed it, they lost the war. The years 1942-1945 were simply the aftershow who cost of to much human lifes.
 
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Xyrion

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Xyrion, I think the actions of the Germans had a huge part to play on the unity of the Soviet State. Had the Germans came as liberators and had they actively recruited amongst the millions of PoWs that they had taken, they would have had a real impact on the course of the war in the East. Remember, the 'White Army' that they eventually formed in 1944 was a very effective fighting force considering that the Red Army executed traitors!

The German Army needed manpower to hold and conquer Russia.

Honestly, I don't think Germany could have ever won in the East. Had the USSR collapsed, German troops would have been overstretched just trying to police the vast expanse.

Well that is true, I would not argue against the notion that the manner the Germans treated POW and the civilian population did not have a positive effect on solidifying the power of the Communists.
As for the amount of POW willing to serve germany already in 1941 Im sure the number would have been noticeable but Im unsure of how large. Among people recruited from recently annexed territory perhaps even a majority.
But going by the reaction of the first few months of 1941; you immediately see a huge patriotic fervor, especially in the younger generation. Followed by shock at the huge losses and the seeming incapability of the regime to put up resistance, however even here, before the occupational policies of the Germans became widely known. There is never really any major surge in dissidence, except of course in regions recently annexed by the USSR, or those regions who suffered worst under the 1930s.

----

Well about holding the territory, you are absolutely correct that it seems unfeasible for the Germans to hold it, and they should have noticed.
This again is why I strongly believe the Germans believed that their initial destruction would trigger widespread and major political turmoil as the peoples of the Soviet union "threw off the communist yoke" as they say. They probably counted of being able to use hiwis or whatever new Russian government took power as a means to control the people.

And consequently why I would say that the Germans already from the get go misinterpreted how effective the communist government had been in solidifying their power and for lack of a better term, they enjoyed quite widespread political support. (Through massive propaganda, indoctrination, destruction of any forums of opposition, terror etc. Basically by knowingly shape a certain norm that was to their liking, the creation of "the Soviet Man")
 
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Hitler distrust his generals in 1940 and 1941 two times, which changed the war. 24. Mai 1940 at Dünkirchen, were his stop order made the dig in and rescue possible.
And in 19.jul.1941, were order 33 splittet AG centreal and robbed them there main attack force.

That´s factually false. The allies fought a fighting withdrawal versus german troops overextended and exhausted. Perhaps you´ve heard about a certain recent work about how some, ahem "stimulants" were issued to troops, right? Well after 10 days even someone on amphetamines is tired.

It wasn´t a magic order alone from Hitler that stopped everything, that is a myth.
 
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Cpt Crash

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If the Germans had captured Moscow, would they have severely damaged the Soviet rail infrastructure? Could the USSR have supplied their lines without the central hub of Moscow?

There is no doubt that the loss of Moscow would have disrupted Soviet rail traffic. Also, there is no doubt that Moscow is much more of a capital city than nearly all others. It certainly would have hurt to have lost the great city--for multiple reasons. However, there was more than one railroad from the east--many more. The resistance of Mother Russia was not going to collapse from the loss of the capital--perhaps it would have further increased resistance. IMO, had the Germans captured Moscow, it would have (eventually-if they could hold it) been of more of a benefit to them than a loss to the Soviets.

The problem for the Germans is that they were not going to get it all in one push--impossible. Moscow could likely have been captured, but only by forgoing the capture of the Ukraine and the Crimea. That is a pretty big trade off. The Red Air force did have strategic bombers.....
 

D Inqu

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The big difference between our two views. 500k in Kiew, could they sucessful attack, yes or no. You say Yes, I say No, not in 1941.
The difference is that you say that in the face of examples where Soviets were launching attacks.
order 33 at 19.jul stopped the advance of germans, which removed the main tank forces until october from central area.
Yes, the order recognised that the summer drive to Moscow failed and without clearing flanks it was not going to advance any further. You are confusing cause and effect.
1 road is enough, ardennen was build on 1 road.
Correct. Panzer Group Kleist was 7 divisions. The drive on Moscow required nearly 50 divisions.
the troops from kiew would never reach the line minsk smolensk without getting encircled from armygroup southern.
How? The whore reason for the "trun south" order was that AG South could not make progress on Kiev. The Soviets could easily move troops to and from the area by rail.
Bryansk would still happen without kiew, simply to cut of the suply lines to kiew which were running over this town. But it would not happen kiew-> bryansk, it would happen smolensk->byansk. So not at beginn of october, it would happen at somewhere in mid august. and at this time, so only soviet troops ready for a counterattack were the troops in kiew which needed to give up kiew for this counterattack.
I really don't understand what you are saying here, it makes no sense.
The only question is, would have been a push and even concentration of the push to muscovy at jul 1941 the better alternative,
There was no alternative. A drive on Moscow was simply impossible.

I will simply post a page from Glantz's recent book on Smolensk which I would highly recommend to anyone as it covers the battle in great detail, coincidentally also demolishing the "advance on Moscow was possible" myth.
glantz.png
 
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aqvamare

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The difference is that you say that in the face of examples where Soviets were launching attacks.
Yes, the order recognised that the summer drive to Moscow failed and without clearing flanks it was not going to advance any further. You are confusing cause and effect.
Correct. Panzer Group Kleist was 7 divisions. The drive on Moscow required nearly 50 divisions.

Panzer group Kleist was unitl the 6.oct part of AG South, and has nothing to do with AG central, only for taifun

Order 33 from the 19.jul put :
Panzer Group 2 Guderian with with 15 DIV from AG central to AG south
and
Panzer Group 3 (Hoth) with 11 DIV from AG central to AG North

So every quote from fights in August and September, were AG Central has massive problems to advance and got stopped, are only quotes after AG Central lost there main armored force.
It shows only, that soviets could stop germans after order 33, but they couldn't stop central before.
And they couldn't stop AH central after the 2.oct when they got there panzer groups back, unitl the 5.dez.

So my point still stands, order 33 gave soviets in this area the needed break of german advance, and it cost germans the "real" chance to encircle moskau.
 
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D Inqu

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Panzer group Kleist was unitl the 6.oct part of AG South, and has nothing to do with AG central, only for taifun
You were talking about Ardennes being an example, so I pointed out that Panzer Group Kleist in 1940 (which went through Ardennes) was only 7 divisions.
So every quote from fights in August and September, were AG Central has massive problems to advance and got stopped, are only quotes after AG Central lost there main armored force.
It shows only, that soviets could stop germans after order 33, but they couldn't stop central before.
This is false. The Panzer groups were still in combat until early August. And when they were withdrawn in August, it wasn't to be immediately used, it was for refitting, as they were below 50% strength.
upload_2015-12-16_23-47-32.png


And they couldn't stop AH central after the 2.oct.
Because the situation was completely different. Three refitted Panzer groups were attacking together with infantry along several different directions, with secure flanks, while the Soviets were more passive due to replenishing from the losses of the Kiev and Northern pockets. In September, it would have been two weakened Panzer groups going in a single direction, constantly plagued by flank attacks.
 
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Zinegata

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I see nothing bias coming from the STAVKA REPRESENTATIVE. But for the life of me, what facts do you have that back this up?

How is any of this define superior leadership?
  1. Officer Corp was purged in the 30's as well as during the early part of The Great Patriotic War
  2. Commissars (Political Officer post 42')
  3. 9 million Soviet troops KIA vs 4 million German troops KIA (Eastern Front).
  4. Order No. 227 or as we all know, Not one step back.........or die by your fellow comrades
Just some fine examples of superior leadership. :rolleyes:

For the last bloody time the highest the kill rate could have been in Germany's favor was 2:1, because at that point Germany wins. The Soviets never had more than twice as many men as the Germans.

The best ratio of losses from Glantz is 15 million permanent losses for the Soviets at the end of the war versus 12 million German and Axis minors. Or 15-12 in Germany's favor, or barely above 1:1. And given that Germany had more oil and more ammunition until 1943, this isn't even a great kill ratio.

All the people quoting "kill ratios" moreover are just buying into NATO propaganda that was deluding itself that it could resist tens of thousands of Soviet tanks and had justified the "rehabilitation" of German Generals who were guilty of war crimes in the East. But of course we can't have that narrative. Instead we get the lie where the Germans had such an awesome kill ratio and we should all listen to their fairy tales.

The real reason the Germans did well at all was because they backstabbed the Soviet Union and attacked an unmobilized Red Army. It's extremely easy to pad your kill rate when your enemy hasn't distributed ammunition to all of the frontline units.

Order 227 was also a myth. It was not as depicted in Enemy at the Gates. Some Soviet deserters were certainly shot and in much higher numbers than in the West, but the Nazis were also shooting deserters by the thousands as the war went badly. Indeed proportionately speaking you were probably more likely to be shot of desertion in the German Army by the SS by the end of the war; and most of these were never recorded as adding to the German kill count because apparently drugged teenagers with a panzerschreck should count as civilians instead of soldiers in the biased counting of the German Generals trying to avoid getting sent to the Gulag.
 
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