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Beagá

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Germans came very close TO Moscow, not to TAKING Moscow. Germans came TO Stalingrad as well, did they TAKE Stalingrad?
Besides, Siberian troops numbered 18 divisions. Hardly a huge number, when the numbers involved hundreds of divisions.

In december 1941 18 fresh divisions meant a LOT.

You know that Hitler based the defense of Berlin on a mythical army that existed only in paper, right?

So instead of "hundreds of divisions", what matters is which divisions that can fight and how cohesive and reinforced they are. "890th division" with 2k people isn´t very potent.

I´m not saying siberian divisions maybe weren´t overrated, just that what matters is the real OOB, not the paper one.
 
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Opanashc

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I´m not saying siberian divisions maybe weren´t overrated, just that what matters is the real OOB, not the paper one.
And the real OOB says, that those 18 divisions composed 250,000 people at most, out of over 2 million soldiers involved on the soviet side. Calling them veterans is hardly fair - they were just as trained as a lot of pre-war divisions in the west.
 
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DeclaredYuppie

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It would be more productive if you can contribute to the thread. A major issue for me in HOI3 was playing an overpowered Germany even in Very Hard. I could steamroll the USSR very quickly, in about 6 months, which diminished my interest in this theatre. In HOI4, hopefully, USSR can better resist the Wehrmacht onslaught. It would be more realistic imho as it was during the war. The gameplay can only get better by facing a more realistic enemy.

I'm not sure if Podcat said it here or somewhere else, but one issue almost all historical games have is the inability to get the players to re-create folly. You steamroll the USSR in no small part because you're (a) not as crazy as Hitler and (b) you know the original plan failed. Do you purposely avoid getting appropriate winter equipment when you play? Do you launch the plan at a time to ensure the bulk of your forces are going to be caught in the worst parts of winter? Do you leave a ton of forces in Norway or wherever as garrisons when they might be more useful up front?

I mean maybe you do, but I suspect part of why you succeed is because you have a lot more information than the Germans did. It's also why I can stomp Germany as France even when they try to get their full Blitzkrieg bonus behind them. Or why people can take over the world as Sweden.
 
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illathid

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I think that the total war nature of the operation was a big contribution to its failure. If you study negotiation at all you very quickly learn about BATNA (Best Alternative To a Neggotiated Agreement). In this case, the alternative to surrender was vastly superior to coming to an agreement for the Soviets.

Had the 3rd Reich used their massive gains in the early months to extract territorial concessions, resource tribute, etc. rather than expecting complete surrender they could have gotten much of what they needed to continue the war effort elsewhere and weakened the soviets for any follow up conflict. At least that's my take on it.
 
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Opanashc

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Had the 3rd Reich used their massive gains in the early months to extract territorial concessions, resource tribute, etc. rather than expecting complete surrender they could have gotten much of what they needed to continue the war effort elsewhere and weakened the soviets for any follow up conflict. At least that's my take on it.
No. Not after they showed their colors with Czechoslovakia. That started with territorial concessions, and how did it end? With total occupation.
 
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Cyprian

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Many of the suggestions here of why it failed are great and have truth to them....but the real bottom line wasnt even how the Tactical or Strategic war on the Soviet front was fought. This Operation was doomed from the start. The Germans armed themselves for very short battles. Look at the previous victories all very short. They were not ready for a long war. This lead to many of the things that were said here. The Germans never expected to even be fighting anymore by winter!! The Soviets were never going to be a short battle.
 
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henzington

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Yeah 100% agree with Opanashc that Hitler's actions showed that he would only respect treaties as long as it served him and not a second longer.
 
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adam_grif

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We've had some good posts. My perspective is to think of it not in terms of why the Germans failed, the overwhelming weight of industry, resources and manpower was against them with the combined Soviet-British-American side. Rather, why did the Germans succeed in the opening phases of the war? How did the Red Army manage to fail so badly? It wasn't really Germany's war to win, it was the Soviet's war to lose. And fortunately for them, they had sufficient resources and the capability to mobilise to such a degree that they could overcome the disasters of the first year and triumph.
 
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Zinegata

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The defeat was due to a failure to account for distance, logistics, and the nature of the German Army.

The fundamental thing to remember about the German Army of 1941 is that it was in fact a fairly advanced industrial-era army. People keep making fun of the German Army's reliance on horses, or take it to the other extreme and pretend it's an ultra-modern army with super tanks and aircraft. The truth is somewhere in the middle slanting towards the latter.

There was a small core of highly trained mechanized forces - the Panzer Armees - which were indeed highly mobile and powerful. However, the bulk of the army was in fact a relatively advanced infantry army - reliant on the power of heavy automatic weapons and artillery - which was very devastating against an enemy that was still reliant primarily on masses of riflemen.

These two worked in concert against the Red Army - which at the time was in the midst of reorganization and hence their unit quality varied widely and the coordination between them was nearly non-existent. On one hand you had some very good Soviet Mechanized Corps with monstrous tanks and professional infantry, but you also had masses of infantrymen who were fighting with shortages in automatic weapons and artillery (though, to be fair, there were very few instances of the "one man carries a rifle, the other picks up the rifle when the first man is killed" myth peddled by Enemy at the Gates). By contrast, the German army was a fairly well-oiled machine at this point and both portions knew exactly what they were supposed to do - the Panzers ranged far ahead, shot up the Soviet rear areas, and created pockets; while the infantry followed as best they could on foot and mopped up the pockets of resistance.

The problem, and this was known to pretty much all of the German generals even before Barbarossa, was that the distances they needed to cover were simply too great for their logistics network to support. And the German Army simply needed huge amounts of supplies - fuel for their tanks and ammunition for the artillery and machine guns being the most important - something to the tune of 1,000 tons of supplies per Division per day of combat. If the Panzer Divisions didn't get their allotments, they went nowhere because they had no fuel. If the Infantry Divisions didn't get their allotments, then they lose much of their machinegun and artillery firepower that makes them so effective. By the time they got to Moscow, the Divisions were simply no longer getting their allocations because the distance was too great.

The firepower structure of the German infantry also made them much less able to take cities - which required riflemen to be expended in great numbers and where the firepower advantage was nullified. Only around a quarter of the Division's manpower was frontline riflemen; the remainder being heavy weapons crews, artillerymen, and logistics personnel. And by the time they got to Moscow, 1/10 of their manpower was gone and the casualties had been disproportionately incurred by the riflemen - leading to some Divisions having less than half of their riflemen allotment and were left with companies consisting of only 20 (!) men apiece. "Company"-sized assaults of 20 men against fortified positions in an urban location like Moscow would have been farcical.
 
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Midden

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There are a lot of comments about the winter, yes it was real bad.

My understanding is that, it is not so much that Germany did not have winter gear prepared, it did, but they could not get it to the front, the logistics situation could not get sufficient, ammunition and fuel to the front,...... winter gear was jammed up in the rail sidings as less of a priority, yet it was there. It's a logistics rather than an incompetence issue.
 
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George Parr

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In december 1941 18 fresh divisions meant a LOT.

You know that Hitler based the defense of Berlin on a mythical army that existed only in paper, right?

So instead of "hundreds of divisions", what matters is which divisions that can fight and how cohesive and reinforced they are. "890th division" with 2k people isn´t very potent.

I´m not saying siberian divisions maybe weren´t overrated, just that what matters is the real OOB, not the paper one.

The Siberian divisions are just a myth though. Many of them were already on the move to the west prior to Barbarossa beginning, all of the early ones were either gone or in dire shape by autumn. And even of those that arrived in October (the last time in 1941 Siberian units arrived in the west) maybe 5-6 divisions were actually involved in defending Moscow.


Germans came very close TO Moscow, not to TAKING Moscow. Germans came TO Stalingrad as well, did they TAKE Stalingrad?

Well, technically, they did more or less take Stalingrad. After all, they were cut off while being IN Stalingrad. There may have been about 5% of the city that they hadn't taken, but most of it was definately under German control. It was the amount of troops needed to take the city, plus the fact that they wasted their Panzer-Divisions in urban combat that led to their downfall in that area. By the time the Soviets made their counter-attack, the Panzer-Divisions in the area where all but out of tanks.

Which reminds me of another collosal blunder: pulling the 4th Panzer Army from its directive towards Stalingrad to help support the 1st Panzer Army in expanding the breakthrough near Rostov. First the troops had to be redeployed, than they were more or less blocking the streets because all the tanks of 1st and 4th PA couldn't advance at the same time, thus doing the opposite of what was intended. After two weeks of this nonsense they get pulled out and redeployed back to their original job, which was a huge strain on logistics, which again hurt the other armies as well. Once they were back, the time for a quick advance was gone. If the 4th PA had been there, the encirclement near Stalingrad might not have been broken, thus leaving Stalingrad with no real defenders, which in turn would have meant no waste of troops over months to take this city.
 
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Wyrm

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They should never have split up to take both Leningrad and Moscow. They should have focused on Leningrad and taken it in order to secure that flank. Then they would have freed up a lot of troops to help attack or besiege Moscow.
 
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Darkshadows

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They should never have split up to take both Leningrad and Moscow. They should have focused on Leningrad and taken it in order to secure that flank. Then they would have freed up a lot of troops to help attack or besiege Moscow.

Taking Leningrad could have also had a small help in that it might have encouraged Finland to push to Petrozavodsk and Murmansk which would have also made the Arctic LL more difficult
 
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In a word, overambition. I mean forgot about securing the Ukraine and all that 'living space', forget capturing Kiev, or Leningrad, or Moscow, or Rostov even, it was all these things all at once. Oh, and be finished in a couple of months while you're at it. Mind-blowing really.

Here's a question, seeing as we're dealing in hypothetical's anyway, could Moscow have been secured, or at least encircled, had Hitler not ordered the panzers south to help close the pocket around Kiev? I'm not asking if the Soviets would surrender or what not but strictly from a military standpoint. It's an interesting consideration. On the one hand the assault on Moscow would have been strengthened considerably, and begun earlier for that matter, on the other hand, it risked leaving 600,000 soviets on Army Group Centre's southern flank. And would Vyazma and Bryansk have been possible at that point? Ah, the what-ifs...
 
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They should never have split up to take both Leningrad and Moscow. They should have focused on Leningrad and taken it in order to secure that flank. Then they would have freed up a lot of troops to help attack or besiege Moscow.
The bulk of the German forces around Leningrad were hanging a single rail line. The terrain around the city was peat swamps and heavy forests. There simply was no way to logistically support any more troops there.
 
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No. Not after they showed their colors with Czechoslovakia. That started with territorial concessions, and how did it end? With total occupation.
Er.. if it is moral science of Treaties here, the USSR under Stalin saw them too as - mere scraps of paper. Also Stalin was a supreme realist, if at any point of time he felt that the West was ready to come to an agreement or semblance of an agreement; he would have stuck a deal with the Devil leave alone Hitler.

Having said that,
Unless Hitler came to an agreement with the West before end of 1941 (read : UK) it was impossible to win in the east and without a deal with Stalin it was impossible to cement the Western gains.
Overall, i do not think Operation Barbarossa reaching the A-A line was feasible or possible. But a "deal" was always possible.
 
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How about...

Moscow was 8km too far from Berlin?


But seriously...

It's about 900 km from Berlin to Paris, about half of which is actually through Germany but it's about 1,800 km from Berlin to Moscow, almost all of which is through hostile territory. Not to mention hostile territory with crap infrastructure.

Too many Soviets.

Not enough Germans.

Allied bombing tied-up a lot of men & kit, especially Flak 88s which were soooo much better against KVs & T-34s than the door-knockers. Instead of 200 & something Flak 88s in 51 batteries used at the start of Barbarossa, they could have sent a thousand batteries. 4,000 flak 88s! Twenty times the number actually deployed would have had a significant impact.

Lend-Lease. Guns, tanks, food, bullets, bombs, shells, trains, aircraft & trucks. Thousands of them that Russia didn't have to manufacture herself allowing her to concentrate her resources & manufacturing capacity on tanks, guns, tanks, rockets, tanks, aircraft, tanks & more tanks.
 
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There is a (probably apocryphal) story from after the American Civil War. Interviewing a Confederate general, a reporter asked, "Why did the South lose?"

With a smile the general replied, "I always thought the Yankees had something to do with it."


It is famously more difficult to conduct an offensive than a defensive, and the Germans make lots - and lots- of mistakes, beginning with faulty intelligence and appreciation and continuing through not understanding the terrain, the logistics, enemy weapons and capabilities and so on. Their efforts were split among multiple objectives and they aroused the anger of the indigenous population - being hated more than the Soviets is something of an achievement, but not a positive one.

On defense, the Soviets made relatively few errors and risked less with each than the Germans did. Unlike WWI, the Soviet army was better armed and trained, better motivated and better led.

The amazing thing, I think, is not that Germany lost but that she got so far. Shows you what good lower-unit leadership and tactics, mostly solid and decent equipment, better than fair generalship and good logistics can get you.
 
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My answer in somewhat point form:

(just to remember this is only the initial failed German operation of 1941)

Why it went better than it should have for the Germans:

- The element of surprise (even though everyone but Stalin thought it was going to happen)
- Superior communication technology implemented throughout the Wermacht forces (and the lack of communication between Soviet forces)
- Excellent Army/airforce coordination
- Air Superiority won early in the battle
- Deceptive diplomacy from years prior
- The great purge of Soviet officers a couple of years prior and the inexperience of the replacements
- The large capture and quick surrender of enormous Soviet formations


Why it still failed:

- The front widened the further they pushed east stretching forces thinner
- Changes in strategic focus. eg. The focus on destroying the red army first vs capturing cities
- Panzer divisions at onset were roughly only at about 60-75% of operational strength
- The month delay from the invasion of Yugoslavia that made winter closer
- Expansive terrain, vehicle reliability, and low infrastructure
- The lack of motorised infantry divisions. (the panzers would have to wait for the infantry to catch up both in local situations but also on a divisional level, divisions waiting for others as not to expose their flanks or rear)
- The coldest winter in 100 years
- The inability to fight in the winter
- Didn't take Moscow or Leningrad or both
- Hitler didn't release 16 divisions from Leningrad to push for Moscow


Contrary to what some people have said here I believe that had Moscow been taken and the Soviets pushed back out of sight of the city the will to fight on would have faded and the Soviet Armies capitulated. Whilst the Soviets were always strong breed of people, it was only after the heinous tyranny that the German occupation brought and the seed of confidence from the halt of the Germans that grew that stop-at-nothing Soviet spirit that was evident on the front lines, behind enemy lines and in the factories for the rest of the war. I am a firm believer that had the Germans taken Moscow it would have been game over for the Soviets, and what is today known as the largest military blunder of all time be known as one of the greatest.
 
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