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Johnniemomomo

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Thats impressive, being so certain about something. ;)
It's a sourced historical fact and not really up for debate. There are actual written orders postponing the original date in May because of weather. Orders that were found after the original assumption of the delay being the attack in the Balkans were cited by Shirer etc. I guess you think the Nazi high command was lying to Hitler?

It's probably not the only reason but I do think it was the major one.
 
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Loke

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It's a sourced historical fact and not really up for debate. There are actual written orders postponing the original date in May because of weather. Orders that were found after the original assumption of the delay being the attack in the Balkans were cited by Shirer etc. I guess you think the Nazi high command was lying to Hitler?

According to the Wikisource it is open for debate and if you have other ideas you are free to add your sources and information.
 

Adonnus

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I said DURING the war, not after it.
Both of the guerrilla movements I mentioned were there during the war, you should look them up.

From Wikipedia:

Despite heavy casualties on both sides during the initial clashes, the struggle was inconclusive. New large scale actions of the UPA, especially in Ternopil Oblast, were launched in July–August 1944, when the Red Army advanced West.[93] By the autumn of 1944, UPA forces enjoyed virtual freedom of movement over an area of 160,000 square kilometers in size and home to over 10 million people and had established a shadow government.[18]

Did you pay attention? Red Army kept 1 million troops on the border of Manchuria through the ENTIRE war. To put it in layman terms: divisions 1XX through 1YY were there in June 1941, divisions 2NN through 2ZZ in 1942, etc. Sure, troops were transferred west, but new formations took their place.

Do you have a source for your 1 million men figure?
 

Mannstien

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They should have spent the resources to take North Afrika, the Middle East, and assisted in liberating Iran from British rule . Germany would have had Stalin by his nuggets. Push the Japanese to only declare war on England and the Allies prior to Barbarossa (Make sure there is NO non-aggression pact signed). England would have come to terms with the loss of the Middle East and control of the Med. and Russia would have been surrounded, Stalin would have been at the Reich's becking call with Germany's armies at the border of the Caucasus oil fields.
 
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Adonnus

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They should have spent the resources to take North Afrika, the Middle East, and assisted in liberating Iran from British rule . Germany would have had Stalin by his nuggets. Push the Japanese to only declare war on England and the Allies prior to Barbarossa (Make sure there is NO non-aggression pact signed). England would have come to terms with the loss of the Middle East and control of the Med. and Russia would have been surrounded, Stalin would have been at the Reich's becking call with Germany's armies at the border of the Caucasus oil fields.

Ridiculous.
 
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Johnniemomomo

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According to the Wikisource it is open for debate and if you have other ideas you are free to add your sources and information.

I'm not going to do your research for you. Actually look into it instead of reading a wikipedia article. The whole rumor that Marita caused Barbarossa to be delayed was started by Anthony Eden in order to salvage in any way possible Britains disastrous campaign in the Balkans. Look at the weather reports and terrain reports for the Eastern front for April-June 1941 and you will quickly see that even if there was no campaign in the Balkans, the Wehrmacht wasn't going anywhere until the mud season ended.
 
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Loke

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The Wikiarticle seems to point at several different sources.
 
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Dark Jakkaru

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80 million people in the 3rd Reich in 1939, 40+ million Italians, Romanians, Hungarians etc, vs 110 million Soviet citizens in areas under control of Moscow in December 1941. How about those numbers?

Are you suggesting that if you color a map a certain way you have 100% utilization of everything under that color? Yes?

If so, then I already answered your question.
 

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Do you have a source for your 1 million men figure?
You read Russian?
http://protown.ru/information/hide/5452.html - here is some information.
http://protown.ru/information/hide/4750.html - sources.
To summarize:
On June 22, 1941, there were 703714 men facing Japan.
On December 1, 1941 - 1343307 men.
On July 1, 1942 - 1440012 men.
On November 19, 1942 - 1296822 men.
On July 1, 1943 - 1156961 men.
On January 1, 1944 - 1102991 men.
On May 9, 1945 - 1185058 men.
Thus, I could argue, then contrary to popular belief, units were sent TO the Far East front in 1941, not FROM.

Are you suggesting that if you color a map a certain way you have 100% utilization of everything under that color? Yes?
If so, then I already answered your question.
I gave numbers ONLY for core populations. For those numbers, it works both ways. I did not include the French, Poles, Dutch, etc in Axis numbers, did I? Yet they were there, and worked for the Reich, albeit less efficiently then Germans did.
 

Flayer92

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#1 reason:
Not enough men. The German army was stretched too thin. They and their allies came in with three million men. They amassed that number by putting together basically all their prime fighting strength on the Eastern Front.

Barbarossa ended with 750,000 Axis casualties in three months, more than the Americans suffered through the entire war. That was one quarter of the invasion force killed, wounded, or MIA.

The Germans didn't have 650,000 men available to replace those losses. As early as 1942, they were scraping the barrel for reinforcements, sending in youth conscripts and World War I veterans to the front lines. Their Eastern Front divisions were always understrength from that point on.

The Soviets of course suffered far worse casualties early on. They too were scraping the barrel. Difference is that when both sides were doing that, the German forces' qualitative superiority over the Soviets', which they'd relied upon to secure victories over superior numbers, quickly diminished as both sides began throwing raw conscripts against each other.

HOI3 modeled this perfectly with Germany bottoming at 0 manpower reserves by 1943 or 44.
 

Adonnus

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HOI3 modeled this perfectly with Germany bottoming at 0 manpower reserves by 1943 or 44.

I don't think it did though. They didn't "run out" of men per say as the war went on, the quality simply decreased. That is, until the very end. The German Army actually increased in size by 1943 compared to 1941 so I think the new HOI4 system will be better.
 

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I don't think it did though. They didn't "run out" of men per say as the war went on, the quality simply decreased. That is, until the very end. The German Army actually increased in size by 1943 compared to 1941 so I think the new HOI4 system will be better.

I agree.

While I understand how it worked and why it was modeled the way it was, HOI3 had some odd quirks to the manpower system that resulted in bizarre strategic decisions at times. The HOI4 system will better model the hard choices all major powers faced during the war. (Even the US had to make tough choices on adding divisions versus maintaining production.)
 

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What do you mean by these bizarre decisions?

For example:

The Soviets have at least 3500 manpower locked up in Great Patriotic War and other decisions/events. But they only fire if you lose enough ground to be at 20% surrender. So, for those who really want that manpower for things like World Conquest, the strategy was to lose ground to the Germans deliberately to fire the decisions and events.

I never really did that (the Soviets have plenty of manpower regardless, even if it isn't historically enough without firing the decisions and events), but people did.
 

Adonnus

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For example:

The Soviets have at least 3500 manpower locked up in Great Patriotic War and other decisions/events. But they only fire if you lose enough ground to be at 20% surrender. So, for those who really want that manpower for things like World Conquest, the strategy was to lose ground to the Germans deliberately to fire the decisions and events.

I never really did that (the Soviets have plenty of manpower regardless, even if it isn't historically enough without firing the decisions and events), but people did.

Yeah, that was a serious problem for me in my Soviet campaign. Built up a huge army, prepared to steamroll Germany...and ran out of manpower. So I actually had to reel back my armies to win the war.
 

bobboberts

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Isn't everything in here really glossing around the simple fact that Barbarossa - and the general invasion of the Soviet Union - failed for the simple reason that of the two madmen willing to throw millions of lives away, Stalin had more to throw?

To put it another way, if Stalin had approached each attack and counter-attack in the same was as the Western armies, he would never keep throwomg numbers at the problem (weren't frontal-assaults still quite predominant even when the SU was on the offensive in late '44?) The UK or US would never have sacrificed men in almost so casual a manner - look at how Monty wouldn't attack until he had numerical superiority, or how much planning went into each US offensive (and the impact of each death on the national psyche). Stalin, though, lost hundreds of thousands of troops and, essentially, said 'Not to worry, here's hundreds of thousands more'. Can you imagine the UK or the US accepting losses of 100% of their initial strength and just carrying on? Of course they wouldn't. I've seen it suggested before, for example, that had the UK lost the BEF then they might have sought peace.

That's not to downplay the skill of Russian generals or the tenacity of their fighting, but Soviet losses in any campaign were generally much higher than for any other army. Had Stalin not been compliant in accepting such casualty rates then the war on the Eastern Front could have been very different. Didn't he also have a breakdown (where he was not contactable for a few days) and considered seeking peace as the Germans closed-in on Moscow?
 
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Johnniemomomo

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Isn't everything in here really glossing around the simple fact that Barbarossa - and the general invasion of the Soviet Union - failed for the simple reason that of the two madmen willing to throw millions of lives away, Stalin had more to throw?

To put it another way, if Stalin had approached each attack and counter-attack in the same was as the Western armies, he would never keep throwomg numbers at the problem (weren't frontal-assaults still quite predominant even when the SU was on the offensive in late '44?) The UK or US would never have sacrificed men in almost so casual a manner - look at how Monty wouldn't attack until he had numerical superiority, or how much planning went into each US offensive (and the impact of each death on the national psyche). Stalin, though, lost hundreds of thousands of troops and, essentially, said 'Not to worry, here's hundreds of thousands more'. Can you imagine the UK or the US accepting losses of 100% of their initial strength and just carrying on? Of course they wouldn't. I've seen it suggested before, for example, that had the UK lost the BEF then they might have sought peace.

That's not to downplay the skill of Russian generals or the tenacity of their fighting, but Soviet losses in any campaign were generally much higher than for any other army. Had Stalin not been compliant in accepting such casualty rates then the war on the Eastern Front could have been very different. Didn't he also have a breakdown (where he was not contactable for a few days) and considered seeking peace as the Germans closed-in on Moscow?

I think the big reason that the Eastern Front was so brutal and so life-or-death is because it truly was a life or death struggle of two totalitarian ideologies. Neither had much concern for their losses if they justified them as necessary for survival. The western powers and especially the US had to take into consideration that their people had to be for the war for it to continue, and so were a little more concerned with limiting their casualties as much as possible. I think from their point of view it was a moral war (as well as a prime chance for the US to inherit the british empire).

The idea that STalin had limitless amounts of manpower is wrong though. Certainly he could afford to take more casualties than Hitler because he had more manpower, but he couldn't take them forever. The Red Army did come extremely close to complete collapse in September after the Viazma encirclement (bigger than kiev) and the political establishment left Moscow for Kuibyshev. Stalin stayed and the Red Army was saved by the rasputitsa in late september.

In my personal opinion Barbarossa was doomed from the start and even if the germans could have taken moscow they wouldn't have held it for long. Soviet industry didn't start to really fire up until late 41 after its redeployment to the Urals which was a big factor in why the Red Army was so short supplied of stufff like AA guns and tanks and AT weapons in september and even if the germans did manage a general rout of the Red Army that fall they would have recovered and resupplied. It may have prolonged the war by a year or more but I don't think the end result was ever in doubt. In hindsight anyway. At the time most people probably didn't think the SU was going to survive.
 

Opanashc

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Isn't everything in here really glossing around the simple fact that Barbarossa - and the general invasion of the Soviet Union - failed for the simple reason that of the two madmen willing to throw millions of lives away, Stalin had more to throw?

To put it another way, if Stalin had approached each attack and counter-attack in the same was as the Western armies, he would never keep throwomg numbers at the problem (weren't frontal-assaults still quite predominant even when the SU was on the offensive in late '44?) The UK or US would never have sacrificed men in almost so casual a manner - look at how Monty wouldn't attack until he had numerical superiority, or how much planning went into each US offensive (and the impact of each death on the national psyche). Stalin, though, lost hundreds of thousands of troops and, essentially, said 'Not to worry, here's hundreds of thousands more'. Can you imagine the UK or the US accepting losses of 100% of their initial strength and just carrying on? Of course they wouldn't. I've seen it suggested before, for example, that had the UK lost the BEF then they might have sought peace.

That's not to downplay the skill of Russian generals or the tenacity of their fighting, but Soviet losses in any campaign were generally much higher than for any other army. Had Stalin not been compliant in accepting such casualty rates then the war on the Eastern Front could have been very different. Didn't he also have a breakdown (where he was not contactable for a few days) and considered seeking peace as the Germans closed-in on Moscow?
You read too many German memoirs.
To start: US and UK war was very much different from the war USSR fought. In 1940, British "Home Defense" forces were armed with freaking pikes, in case Wehrmacht makes it across the channel - they were literally ready to throw lives away. USSR had no such moat.
US and UK soldiers were much better equipped then those of the SU. They had more time to train their soldiers then SU. They had a much greater numerical superiority when fighting then SU, over their enemy.
Stalin did not have a break down. That's a myth, started by Soviet elite after his death, in order to throw dirt on the man - sort of like electoral campaigns of today, when you throw dirt on your opponent, to show that you are the better choice.
UK did not face "Plan Ost", it was "business as usual" for them. Not so much for SU. If you have 2 men, one is forced to fight for his job, another for his life - who will accept defeat more easily?
UK and US DID sacrifice men - ill-fated Greece expedition, Dieppe Raid, Operation Market Garden.
 
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