Why did not Qing colonize Siberia?

[Calad]

This is rather similar topic: why did not Indonesians colonize Australia?

Like Qing had manpower and tools but looks like they did not have a political will. This is rather strange that Russians simply expanded into wasteland without little local and Qing intervene. I quess the the best question is, why was Russia politically motivated to colonize Siberia and Qing had not?

Siberia was complitely open to Qing. They had defeated hordes and annexed them. They had no enemies and their nation was isolated but stable. Qing simply had every opportunity to colonize Siberia but decided not to do that.

 

[Arilou]

Qing expansion was focused farther south, into Xinijang and Dzungaria.

They also did establish a border fairly far north at the Treaty of Nerchinsk. (northern Manchuria was already pretty sparsely populated so there was no real need to push)

Remember that both for Russia and the Qing, control was more a matter of a couple of river routes and a couple of strongpoints, it was a very loose affair.

 

[Maq]

I believe Qing considered land outside China proper basically worthless, and their conquest of Mongolia, East Turkestan and Tibet was primarily aimed at preventing any threat coming from there. Similarly in the north, it made little sense to go far beyond Amur, because no danger could come from there, and they did not see any profit from conquering and controlling what they considered a wasteland.
Such thinking is in line with Chinese Confucian tradition, i.e. that only farming is genuine source of prosperity.
On the other hand, Russians never apply any reasoning in the sense whether conquest is worth or not. It always is. See the latest example: Conquest of Crimea brought only troubles, yet they don't mind, expansion is good per se.

 

[Fishman786]

This is rather similar topic: why did not Indonesians colonize Australia?

Like Qing had manpower and tools but looks like they did not have a political will. This is rather strange that Russians simply expanded into wasteland without little local and Qing intervene. I quess the the best question is, why was Russia politically motivated to colonize Siberia and Qing had not?

Siberia was complitely open to Qing. They had defeated hordes and annexed them. They had no enemies and their nation was isolated but stable. Qing simply had every opportunity to colonize Siberia but decided not to do that.

Siberia is a horrendous place. It's an enormous trackless wilderness full of biting insects, disease and impassible terrain. The climate is truly awful in a way that no other part of the northern hemisphere is, you have places where the yearly temperature range exceeds 100 degrees. It is so bad that the climate actually gets better as you approach the arctic circle. In most of Siberia anything approaching agriculture is impossible. Siberia might look beautiful and wild but this is not some Appalachian frontier of opportunity. Before some very, very brave men developed a network of long-distance railways, the only way to get about Siberia reliably was by sailing along rivers and occasionally dragging your ship over dry land. Even today, the only part of Siberia that is colonised by large populations of human beings is the narrow southern belt that forms the edge of the steppe.

Siberia might have been 'open' to the Qings in terms of politics, after all this was a place only guarded by small bands of Russian Cossacks. The Manchus did war with the Cossacks and they managed to keep the Chinese frontier intact (for a while at least), and they managed to hold on to much of that steppe frontier land in northern Manchurian and Mongolia. But there was absolutely no reason to go further north than that. Siberian resources could be accessed via trade with the small Russian population that lived in the south, there was no reason for Chinese colonists to go and try and seek out new lands there, and marching an army of any size into Siberia is a good way to lose your entire army.

Russian colonists moved through Siberia via river.

If you're going from the west you can access this network relatively easily: you can sail there from Arkhangelsk or further west, you can cross the Urals and enter western Siberia which has a relatively large population and a better climate (it was home to the Sibir Khanate at one point), and from there you can use the Yenisei-Lena portage to get around the impassible ice at the Timur peninsula. Essentially you can bring your boat all the way from the heart of Russia to the Pacific.

From the east your options are much more limited.

Unlike in Russia, you can't make a few relatively easy and familiar jumps to access the rivers. You have mountain ranges and hills barring the way, you have the vast wastes of Mongolia, you have the mountains of northern Manchuria, and the nearest estuaries are thousands of miles along the coast from China's great rivers and ports. Yes the northern border of the Qing Empire did pass near a lot of those navigable rivers, but that's the northernmost frontier, miles from any big population centres.

So, to sum up:
1. There were few reasons for the Qing to try to reach Siberia or colonise it.
2. Geographically Russia had a big advantage over China when it came to accessing and exploring Siberia.

 

[icedt729]

Russia expanded through Siberia in order to (1) establish new, northerly trade routes that would circumvent the Central Asian khanates and (2) to establish a port on the Pacific. The Chinese were already on the Pacific and it made no difference to them whether it was Indians, Bukkharans, Russians or anyone else who bought their goods. So in addition to it being more costly for the Chinese than for the Russians, it would also be less rewarding.

 

[demanvanwezel]

for the same reason the mongols and the manchu went south instead of north

despite being easier to conquer there was nothing they thought they needed in the north

this is a flaw in EUIV and paradox games in general, land is never ever not worth the hassle

why would the chinese need siberia?
you can't farm there because it's too cold
they already had enough mines in the country itself
trade routes? they already had enough of those thank you very much, trade was seen as an instabilising factor but a way to keep the neighbours happy, something to dabble in but not something that makes or breaks a nation

no all siberia would add is just indefensible worthless land that would just cost the state money that was needed elsewhere

 

[Cavalry]

Like Qing had manpower and tools but looks like they did not have a political will. This is rather strange that Russians simply expanded into wasteland without little local and Qing intervene. I quess the the best question is, why was Russia politically motivated to colonize Siberia and Qing had not?

Well the land is mostly like a desert before. It will cost money just living there! There is no manpower for mil or tax! The Trans- Siberia railroad is very far south near the border, because that is the "best" strip of land Russian can find to place the railroad.

Also the Qing closed the whole Manchu off limit to Chinese Han, and only open it very late when they need the money to reform. After that the Han people become majority in Manchu very quickly. But by that time the Russian were already long on the border.

Russia has the Cossacks, the free farmers that can independently take a 3 year trips to the wilderness without homesick, and the merchants that paid for the expeditions.

Nowadays governments can spend huge money to improve the land, but before there is starved people right in the capitals.

 

[Arilou]

IIRC, the fur trade was the major early impetus for russian expansion, and that just wasn't as lucrative to the chinese.

 

[Shadowstrike]

A counterpoint: they did take over the parts worth having, until they were thrown out by the Russians in the 1800s, and in the rest of the country, there isn't anything there worth having, even today. As previously mentioned, the Russians went there primarily for the furs and access to the Pacific. Their first port, Okhotsk is ice-bound much of the year and not actually valuable to anyone who has better Pacific ports; Vladivostok, the current main Pacific port, actually lies in territory that the Qing did claim (but were forced to cede to the Russians in the 1860s). The furs were going to come south anyhow (via trade), and back then (and arguably even now), it was impossible to economically mine anything there, and it was too cold for either herding or farming (the part of Siberia where this is possible today is very far to the west, and the Qing did rule loosely there - or at least accepted fealty from the tribes there until the Russians came).