why conquer provinces

[Blairmhor]

hi,

got another question about gameplay.
i´m somewhat irritated about the usefullness of conquering provinces.

as i see it you don´t have much gain from the new provinces because of things like:
- can´t promote pops (so no use for factories)
- soldiers from that provinces are only native, so weaker
- you have to deal with rebels

so what i´d like to know is, does anybody else know good issues to conquer provinces. currently i´m more looking to try to create a sattelite as you don´t have to manage the provinces but get some money.

also, what does the "grant statehood" do? i read something about granting them more rights like voting or so, but why should i grant them statehood if i don´t have the good effects of my core states (promoting pop, regular soldiers).


i made my thoughts when playing a long game as japan and a short one as argentinia, so maybe i´m missing something on the big picture.

looking forwar for your feedback.
Blairmhor

 

[henryjai]

hi,

got another question about gameplay.
i´m somewhat irritated about the usefullness of conquering provinces.

as i see it you don´t have much gain from the new provinces because of things like:
- can´t promote pops (so no use for factories)
- soldiers from that provinces are only native, so weaker
- you have to deal with rebels

so what i´d like to know is, does anybody else know good issues to conquer provinces. currently i´m more looking to try to create a sattelite as you don´t have to manage the provinces but get some money.

also, what does the "grant statehood" do? i read something about granting them more rights like voting or so, but why should i grant them statehood if i don´t have the good effects of my core states (promoting pop, regular soldiers).


i made my thoughts when playing a long game as japan and a short one as argentinia, so maybe i´m missing something on the big picture.

looking forwar for your feedback.
Blairmhor

Grant Statehood allows:

- The POPs in that state to be assimilated to your national culture (if necessary conditions are met)

remark: POPs of your national cultures can be converted

- The POPs in the state to vote

- Increased tax

- Increased cost for crime fighting, education, social reform cost.

 

[unmerged(164401)]

for 3 main reasons:

1) they do make a perfect source of manpower for your military.

2) you are most likely lacking in certain resources for your factories back home. basically this is what happens. your homeland will be the center of industrilization and it's more effiecent if you took those national farmers/labourers out of their RGO to your factories, while those conquered lands or colonies will provide you with the basic resources you need back home.

3) some provinces may have factories. so this is both money in your pocket, and an add for your industrial score.

 

[GameNerd]

Q: why conquer provinces?
A: because it
1. is fun
2. can act as strategic bases against your enemies
3. fuels your economic growth (take Japan as example; conquer China and your manpower problems for both the military and the industry are forever solved)

To make this worthless provinces - as you see it - to something useful, make sure that your ruling party have full citizenship as minority politic, without that you can't promote pops other than your own national culture.

If I remember it the right way, "grant statehood" can only be given to provinces there a part of the people are the same as your national culture. Because of this you can't grant statehood to provinces like in Africa but if you encourage emigration from your land, you can grant statehood. By granting statehood the people that lives there will be able to vote and it's also possible to build factories there. The downside is that the criminal slider will be a little more expensive.

I think I covered it all, even if I'm bad at english

EDIT: damm, you posted before me

 

[Blairmhor]

wow, thanks for the feedback so far.

so....is it realy usefull to use that pops for military? i as japan conquered korea but i can only create native troops. is it realy worth it, i was more thinking about quality over quantity.

about that "pops can be assimilate to your national culture with the right conditions"....are that general know conditions or is it nation specific?
any hints about what that conditions are?
problem is i can´t get it done to have a ruling party with "full citizenship" so i would prefer the assimilation to my national culture.

 

[henryjai]

(take Japan as example; conquer China and your manpower problems for both the military and the industry are forever solved)

You mean something like this ?

With the home islands alone I would never have over 25000 industry... This is the consequence of industrialization. (I neglected POP splitting already) I used around 90% of my national culture in factories. Why produce worthless grain if you could simply import them? (but still, I don't need to import grain thanks to my colonies)

You should be noted that using your own produced items for factories are cheaper than you buying them from the WM. Though there are no obvious reason not to get your farmers working in factories if you could, because you simply gain much more money from industrial products.

Many colonies are good for providing agricultural products (That you cannot grant statehood easily), many are located in Africa/Asia. Most obvious examples is India, you always wonder why Britain has such ridiculous export income...

 

[gornard]

It depends on your objective:
1, If you are competing for the great power slots then the only way to weaken someone industrially is to take valuable provinces.
2, Even if non national pops earn less money, they are still better then empty RGO or factory slots.
3, If you are short of resources (for example as the UK in VIP i have a constant shortage of cotton) or have to buy resources for factories, producing more of the resource your self will increase your profits.
4, Manpower, colonial units aren't that bad and they can be better then using your own valuable convertible pops. The manpower of colonial soldier pops can also be used to reinforce your existing soldiers.
5, Getting a landing zone on your enemies mainland can be invaluable for future wars
6, Simply reclaiming national pops outside your borders
7, If you take enough provinces to form a viable satellite, it serves a number of purposes: it removes the badboy you earned by taking those provinces, it takes the provinces off your enemy, it produces troops to help you fight, it can be used as a buffer state to deny your enemy access in a war, providing it doesn't go bankrupt it will earn you prestige.

also another advantage of granting statehood is that it cannot be taken in a colonial war

 

[henryjai]

It depends on your objective:
1, If you are competing for the great power slots then the only way to weaken someone industrially is to take valuable provinces.
2, Even if non national pops earn less money, they are still better then empty RGO or factory slots.
3, If you are short of resources (for example as the UK in VIP i have a constant shortage of cotton) or have to buy resources for factories, producing more of the resource your self will increase your profits.
4, Manpower, colonial units aren't that bad and they can be better then using your own valuable convertible pops. The manpower of colonial soldier pops can also be used to reinforce your existing soldiers.
5, Getting a landing zone on your enemies mainland can be invaluable for future wars
6, Simply reclaiming national pops outside your borders
7, If you take enough provinces to form a viable satellite, it serves a number of purposes: it removes the badboy you earned by taking those provinces, it takes the provinces off your enemy, it produces troops to help you fight, it can be used as a buffer state to deny your enemy access in a war, providing it doesn't go bankrupt it will earn you prestige.

also another advantage of granting statehood is that it cannot be taken in a colonial war

good points, I would like to add, due to engine/coding limitations, a native unit recruited in very early game would perform almost as good as a regular unit apart from their reliability rating.

and no. 6 is simply the only method to effectively increase your national population. Immigration to Europe don't worked very well. (Assimilation problems). However, you should be noted that only European nations could receive immigrants for non-same-continent provinces. (That means, if you acquire some province in Africa as Japan/China/USA/Chile, you'll never be able to grant statehood to them)

 

[Blairmhor]

yeah, that are realy some good reasons.
i also was planning to import basic goods, didn´t think that it would be better for profit to produce it in colonies.

i still would like to know more about that assimilating to national culture, if anybody has more information about that.

 

[gornard]

As i understand it, if you produce goods domestically you not only negate the cost of purchasing them off the world market, but you can sell the excess and as a side effect possibly deny sales to the foreign supplier. If you are not getting an adequet supply of a certain good, chances are it is being used in someone elses factory or to build someone elses infrastructure or military. If you take this supply and use it all your self then you will reduce a foreign power's ability to make money or war.

 

[henryjai]

yeah, that are realy some good reasons.
i also was planning to import basic goods, didn´t think that it would be better for profit to produce it in colonies.

i still would like to know more about that assimilating to national culture, if anybody has more information about that.

Assimilation is something really confusing (And I admit that I don't know all about it), but I'll state the criteria for assimilation to happen:

Criteria:
1. the state but be a state, not a colonial state (you need to grant statehood)


2. the assimilation subject must not be the primary culture in that province.


3. There is a upper-cap of POP size for assimilation to happen, it depends on the:

a. Religion of the POP (if it match with your state religion, the cap is much higher)
b. Minority Policy of your ruling party
c. Continent of the province
d. TAG of the country (USA is special)


Corollary:
Immigrants are usually non-primary culture of a province, thus readily available for assimilation.


Remarks:
1. non-colonial provinces of a civilized nation, would retain the status of states no matter it is outisde of your continent or not


2. You need a national culture to be a primary culture of one of the provinces in a colonial state to grant statehood to become a state.


3. Assimilation Pace depends on

a. Religion: non-state religion POPs assimilate slower
b. satisfaction of good: more satisfied POPs assimilate faster
c. employment: employed POPs assimilate faster

 

[henryjai]

As i understand it, if you produce goods domestically you not only negate the cost of purchasing them off the world market, but you can sell the excess and as a side effect possibly deny sales to the foreign supplier. If you are not getting an adequet supply of a certain good, chances are it is being used in someone elses factory or to build someone elses infrastructure or military. If you take this supply and use it all your self then you will reduce a foreign power's ability to make money or war.

You're rite, when you produce them yourselves, it is independent of the tariffs the seller nations set. However, in most cases, industrial goods still worth much more than raw materials, so unless you cannot turn them to work at factories, you should not leave people in RGOs.

The logic is that, POP income is affected by your exports, so, maximizing exports, your POPs would be rich and happy. (really, the internal price of grain is quite the same as that you import)

A few kinds of RGOs are worth being maintained even if you could turn them to work in factories:

RGOs worth less than 2.5 are generally very unefficient (and thus worthless). A few 5.0 provinces would satisfy your industrial needs for that kind of good (so, check out where are the 5.0s and seize them!)

generally, for non-utterly worthless RGOs, you'd like to produce to the level that meets your own needs(for factories)


Utterly worthless RGOs: (That is not worth maintaining even at 5.0 resources value)
Grain (the most worthless resources ever)
Fruits
Cotton
Cattle
Coffee
Tea
Tobacco


Rare/Strategic materials:

That don't make much money but worth a lot after being processed, also they are tight on supply, yes, if you take all sulfur and not exporting any sulfur/munitions/weapons your enemies would have no troops/ships/forts at all (good start for a WC huh)

Tropical Wood
Rubber
Sulfur (this worths a lot though)

 

[gornard]

Yeah i generally mean when you can't convert the population.

Also fruit and cotten aren't compeltely worthless as they are involved in the production of wine and fabric (admitedly not the most profitable factories, but you'll probably get them in a lassiez faire economy). In VIP, cotten and coffee ended up being priced at around 16-18 pounds which isn't too bad for an RGO. It may be best to keep just enough production of any raw material that you use in factories, aside from the obvious coal + iron etc. I'm not entirely sure on this though.

 

[unmerged(157031)]

I always keep a small POP in RGO's simply because it's better to produce just enough of, for example, grain than to produce none. Later on in the game your RGOs should be so efficiant that even having a 2000 non national POP can produce a decent amoint of that resource.

To get back on topic, the main appeal of conquering provinces is the resources that they give you. Just as an example, Abu Dabi produces oil around the time that fule comes on to the market, and they are usually bankrupt by this time; I often send a small division of troops to steamroll them and annex them, just so that I don't have to import oil.

 

[gornard]

I always keep a small POP in RGO's simply because it's better to produce just enough of, for example, grain than to produce none. Later on in the game your RGOs should be so efficiant that even having a 2000 non national POP can produce a decent amoint of that resource.

well i'd say there is almost no use in keeping a pop in a grain, cattle or fish RGO. You don't need to import them as you don't need them for factories or anything you build or train. Also theres a vast population world wide who have no choice but to work as fishermen or farmers, in china, india and eventually africa. So your pops (who buy off the world market even if you have a huge stockpile) will always have enough cheap food to feed their needs.
Another point is that it is very hard not to produce grain or fish as you will often have some non national pops somewhere who will remain in a farm or in a colony, who cannot enter or the ranks of the proletariat.

 

[unmerged(157031)]

Cattle and grain are used in canned food, and grain is also used in liquor.

It costs £1000 to convert that 2000 pop to craftsmen; better leave them be and save the money if you ask me. Aster all, every little helps...

 

[Andrelvis]

and no. 6 is simply the only method to effectively increase your national population.

If your POPs migrate a lot between your provinces, the small migrating POPs may get assimilated to your national culture. Playing Austria with a full citizenship party in power, this often makes my South German POPs overtake Hungarian as the largest culture in the empire, without any land acquisitions that would give me more South Germans. This is a very slow process though, and I am yet to see my South Germans be more than 30% of the national population.

 

[GameNerd]

You mean something like this ?

With the home islands alone I would never have over 25000 industry... This is the consequence of industrialization. (I neglected POP splitting already) I used around 90% of my national culture in factories. Why produce worthless grain if you could simply import them? (but still, I don't need to import grain thanks to my colonies)

You should be noted that using your own produced items for factories are cheaper than you buying them from the WM. Though there are no obvious reason not to get your farmers working in factories if you could, because you simply gain much more money from industrial products.

Many colonies are good for providing agricultural products (That you cannot grant statehood easily), many are located in Africa/Asia. Most obvious examples is India, you always wonder why Britain has such ridiculous export income...

Yehh, something like that . That yellow in China, is that the the Taiping rebellion?

 

[henryjai]

Yehh, something like that . That yellow in China, is that the the Taiping rebellion?

It is my trusty puppet of Communist China, ranked #10.

Guangxi Clique is also a trusty Puppet with a small modern navy, same for the Philipines.

 

[Ex Mudder]

Is it worth it to conquer backwards states so they can benefit from your technology? I think a conquered Peru, for example, would produce more iron and sulfer than a native controlled one, even if the workers receive less income. If it is a resource you need / that is valuable, shouldn't taking the province from a low tech nation boost it's output?