Why can't we put our armies in forts?

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Chamboozer

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This one I really don't get. :p

1. It's a huge aid to those recovering from wars
- When a country's army gets destroyed they have to rebuild it somehow, and the only way it can be rebuilt is one regiment at a time. This makes it very easy for attacking countries to simply destroy it again, wasting the already weakened defender's manpower and money. A country in this situation needs to have a tool they can use to preserve their small armies, and to give them some sort of use. In this game I often see situations where larger enemy army will travel across their enemy's entire country to seek out a weaker one because they know they can defeat it - this is absurd because hunting down and forcing another army to fight was far from simple in this era. One way of dealing with this could be to add a "scatter" button to an army, whereby it'll automatically split up into smaller groups and garrison in the closest nearby fortresses.

2. It gives smaller countries a better defense.

- Likewise, it gives the armies of smaller countries an option aside from just being wiped out for no gain, again at a loss of money and manpower. When the Ottomans attack the Byzantines and their army is approaching Constantinople, the Byzantine army should have some choice other than simply standing there and dying. Let them enter the fort, but with a limit - only 2x the fort level, so the Byzantines could put 6,000 extra men in their level 3 fortress. This would also allow fortresses a variable number of defenders, which makes it more historical. A feature like this would also enable the defender in a war to tie down a larger number of enemy troops in a siege.

3. We have a sortie feature now.

- Now that we can actually use armies in fortresses to engage in combat, there's a real use to having armies be stationed there. We can tie down large numbers of enemy troops and prevent assaults by selectively garrisoning our forts, and sortie from them using decent sized armies that don't just get wiped out immediately.

So come on Paradox, let's do this already. ;)
 

Arag

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This one I really don't get. :p

1. It's a huge aid to those recovering from wars
- When a country's army gets destroyed they have to rebuild it somehow, and the only way it can be rebuilt is one regiment at a time. This makes it very easy for attacking countries to simply destroy it again, wasting the already weakened defender's manpower and money. A country in this situation needs to have a tool they can use to preserve their small armies, and to give them some sort of use. In this game I often see situations where larger enemy army will travel across their enemy's entire country to seek out a weaker one because they know they can defeat it - this is absurd because hunting down and forcing another army to fight was far from simple in this era. One way of dealing with this could be to add a "scatter" button to an army, whereby it'll automatically split up into smaller groups and garrison in the closest nearby fortresses.

2. It gives smaller countries a better defense.

- Likewise, it gives the armies of smaller countries an option aside from just being wiped out for no gain, again at a loss of money and manpower. When the Ottomans attack the Byzantines and their army is approaching Constantinople, the Byzantine army should have some choice other than simply standing there and dying. Let them enter the fort, but with a limit - only 2x the fort level, so the Byzantines could put 6,000 extra men in their level 3 fortress. This would also allow fortresses a variable number of defenders, which makes it more historical. A feature like this would also enable the defender in a war to tie down a larger number of enemy troops in a siege.

3. We have a sortie feature now.

- Now that we can actually use armies in fortresses to engage in combat, there's a real use to having armies be stationed there. We can tie down large numbers of enemy troops and prevent assaults by selectively garrisoning our forts, and sortie from them using decent sized armies that don't just get wiped out immediately.

So come on Paradox, let's do this already. ;)

Can you put this into the suggestion sub-forum? Because this is a really nice idea...

PS: Look up siege of Rhodes 1480 and the siege of Malta 1565 for real life examples.
 

Aries666

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Good idea in theory, teaching the AI when to garrison, when to ungarrison and when to sortie (something I haven't seen it do yet) is a different matter.
 

Rinsukaze

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Although I think it is a good idea (as I had my new units crushed too) it could lead to "a game of forts", where a nation never leave its forts except for going to war, so getting a strong opponent low guard would be pretty difficult.

Nonetheless this idea could be the base to improve these problems.
 

Hexmage

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Aren't forts already filled with people?

I'd say the troops that are on the map are the troops that don't fit inside the fort. It seems pretty unlikely that you could stack another couple thousand people in forts that easily. (this is all baseless assumption)
 

Wixit

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Even if the fort itself can house an additional 20000 men it certainly can't feed them for as long as it could the original garrison. Fortifying a province in this manner should decrease siege time significantly.
 

zodium

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Even if the fort itself can house an additional 20000 men it certainly can't feed them for as long as it could the original garrison. Fortifying a province in this manner should decrease siege time significantly.

This is already modeled with supply limits, though, and garrison size doesn't affect siege time--fort level does. It could give countries with no real means of self-defense a way to preserve their army while a larger ally comes to their rescue, and it doesn't really inconvenience or affect an attacker with intent to conquer. I think it's a good idea.
 

Wixit

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This is already modeled with supply limits, though, and garrison size doesn't affect siege time--fort level does. It could give countries with no real means of self-defense a way to preserve their army while a larger ally comes to their rescue, and it doesn't really inconvenience or affect an attacker with intent to conquer. I think it's a good idea.

Surely the supply limit of the province cannot be the same as the supply limit of the fortifications? In my mind province supply limit was always "you can steal/loot/"acquire" enough food for up to X regiments in this province" rather than how large is the forts food stockpile. And if the enemy has surrounded your fort you'll have a hard time to get the provinces food into the fort. And suppose that you could, what happens when the combined supply weight of the attacker and defender go beyond the supply limit of the province, who suffers attrition and how much of each army is eroded?

Yes, fort level determines siege time, but I always equated fort level with the amount of supplies the garrison has at hand. So for example if you double the garrison with additional forces, the attacker gains a +1 siege modifier as there's more mouths to feed with the same amount of food.

Not that I'm against the idea, mind, but there's some things that need to be ironed out.
 

Chamboozer

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Yes, fort level determines siege time, but I always equated fort level with the amount of supplies the garrison has at hand. So for example if you double the garrison with additional forces, the attacker gains a +1 siege modifier as there's more mouths to feed with the same amount of food.

Not that I'm against the idea, mind, but there's some things that need to be ironed out.

A fort surrendering isn't just representative of it running out of food and giving up. It is also representative of how damaged the fortifications are, how much gunpowder and ammunition remains with the defenders, if enough men are left alive to man all of the defenses, and the general morale of the populace. The extra men and weaponry that would come with the extra troops could even out the differences. Of course, in real life a call can be made one way or another whether it would be more beneficial to have more or less people, but in the game it's abstracted enough that we can't say one way or another whether it would speed up or slow down the siege.

Not to mention, of course, that a few thousand more troops wouldn't make a significant difference in the food situation in the fort, since most forts in the game are really sieges of the major cities of the region, which also have populations in the thousands. I suggested a limit of 2x the fort level, so only in late game with the most highly upgraded of forts could you fit in a number like 10 or 20,000.
 

Korsan82

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When PI released the Sortie DD I suggested exactly this. But I think this requires "too much work" and thus nobody considered this. In a DLC about war THIS would be an improvement
 

Thanik

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Good idea in theory, teaching the AI when to garrison, when to ungarrison and when to sortie (something I haven't seen it do yet) is a different matter.

They introduce sth like this in March of the Eagles.
That was fun in multiplayer, but in SP that was another tool how player can cripple AI manpower, especially with big countries.
 

Korsan82

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They introduce sth like this in March of the Eagles.
That was fun in multiplayer, but in SP that was another tool how player can cripple AI manpower, especially with big countries.

It's not impossible. It requires some real work, other than adding mofifiers, events, decisions and half baked mechanisms which apparently have been tested by 4 people only.
But I agree, with the given ressources the game will remain at stagnation status and it will not evolve into something really big.