Why can't I imprison my daughter's murderer?

[michx0]

I believe everyone here talking about the event id 20290 where spymaster is killed by random plotter. I reported this bug, but it was missed.
Problem is - reason of death and consequences are applied separately, and they missed the second part here.
Also there is no check for skills, even the most skilled paranoid craven master schemer spymaster has exactly 50% chance to be killed by zero-intrigue imbecile character, should this event happen. And it has higher chance to happen for skilled spymasters which is counterintuitive since good spymaster is skilled enough to not let plotter know he is being watched.

(if anyone wants to actualize this case, here is my original report)
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rs-can-kill-spymaster-with-no-punish.1056461/

 

[Pollux26]

There was never any case of someone owning a duchy in Northern England and then owning a duchy down in Spain too.

I mean, if this is the best excuse you can come up with... know that current day UK does literally this. And that during the time period of CK2, Byzantium owned Sardinia and Crimea. Not to mention near the end Venice owns Corfu...

Edit: and current day Russia has an exclave like 600 Kms away from their borders.

 

[jwalche]

Vessels want more titles whether they make the borders look nice or ugly. That's how the game and the history works and worked. Managing to minimize is a part of game play. It will still happen, but nothing a strong ruler can't fix with a few title revocations. Even when the border looks nice, I still revoke regularly because I don't like having grand dukes. It's only -15 opinion for 5 years per title. If the vessel don't want to give up some of his titles, a small civil war would make it even easier.

Spymaster's job is also a traditionally dangerous work, and one that doesn't offer right to be revenged if killed. I don't send my women or daughters. I give them more important rolls with Equity choice, and make my expandable vessels or some random old women as spymasters.

 

[makaramus]

I rembember I was able to imprison my target since he was known murderer no one was caring O_O
are you sure about that? :/

I mean, if this is the best excuse you can come up with... know that current day UK does literally this. And that during the time period of CK2, Byzantium owned Sardinia and Crimea. Not to mention near the end Venice owns Corfu...

Edit: and current day Russia has an exclave like 600 Kms away from their borders.

fun fact: Surface of entire russia is larger/equal to plutons... yea our old "planet" that is no longer "planet"
...
hell man...

 

[jwalche]

In one game my character was a King, got kidnapped by this countess in my realm, imprisoned, put in the oubliette, before she castrated my character and released him. No reason for imprisonment or anything afterwards.

Needless to say she didn’t last long and her children inherited nothing because everything she owned was revoked and she eventually died in the oubliette of the royal castle.

I just feel that should give some means of imprisonment or revenge without incurring tyranny

You didn't murder all her extended family members?

 

[Kipman2000]

You didn't murder all her extended family members?

Nah, I didn’t want to take the malus tyrannical hit, so I wait imprisoning and revoking titles. My guy had been very prolific at that point and had something like 7 kids, so it wasn’t the end of the world. But if I could without getting any negative opinion modifier, I would have tortured and killed her of course, banished her entire family and taken everything she had as my own

 

[Kipman2000]

Spymaster's job is also a traditionally dangerous work, and one that doesn't offer right to be revenged if killed.

Fair enough, I agree that if they are killed it is a risk that comes with that particular line of work, but mostly it’s other cases I react to, such as straight up murder as a result of nothing, where some count assassinate my daughter who is heir to the empire just because he thinks that a fun thing to do while he’s passing time, or when some non landed rival of my wife has her plot fire just because she’s envious of the emperor’s wife

 

[CathyMe]

Spymaster's job is also a traditionally dangerous work, and one that doesn't offer right to be revenged if killed. I don't send my women or daughters. I give them more important rolls with Equity choice, and make my expandable vessels or some random old women as spymasters.

You're right that spymaster is a dangerous job, but when you are caught killing someone because they were about to snitch on you doing something illegal, than you should definitely get the murderer treatment ,even if it wasn't the heir to the empire that was killed.

 

[Yxklyx]

As someone else mentioned I think the bug is that the game is giving you more information than your character actually knows. "suspicious circumstances" never shows up when close family members are murdered.

 

[WJS]

Internal border gore is annoying, there needs to be ways to fix it. In real life people would generally hold lands in the same general area.

Generally, but then there's Baarle-Hertog.

 

[vandevere]

As someone else mentioned I think the bug is that the game is giving you more information than your character actually knows. "suspicious circumstances" never shows up when close family members are murdered.

This reminds me of a thing that happened one of my France play thoughs. The Kaiser of the HRE had five healthy sons. A count-let's call him Count of X-had each and every son murdered. One at a time. In each case X was "Discovered. These were not "Suspicious Circumstances". The Game clearly stated that the Count of X was responsible, and he had the "Known Murderer" Trait. So everyone knew X was killing those children.

So...

Let's recap...

Five boys, each an heir to the Emperor, murdered-one right after the other-on the KNOWN orders of the same ruler, and the Kaiser can't even touch the guy?

Sometimes, the game tries so hard to make it "Difficult" for the player that it winds up tying itself up in knots to justify that all-important tyranny penalty.

 

[Vasious]

I disagree. They don't have the right and I am entitled if I am powerful enough.

You want to break custom and tradition, then use your power
Take the opinion hit, and crush the rebellion.
Just dont cry if you lose, as they are just following the same "Might makes right" that you says gives you absolute right to do what ever you want against people with their own personal armies

 

[Urzhail64]

It's possible that almost everyone except yourself approved of the murder of your daughter. Those were superstitious times, after all. And if she was your spymaster, that probably didn't help in making her popular. Maybe she got accused of being a witch. Who knows?

Annnd...spymasters get murdered ALOT from experience prolly because someone else wants their position or they're getting in the way of the plots. For that reason I don't assign my truly important children to any of the following: Army leaders, spymasters and chancellors.

 

[Poliut]

I find a lot of things like this is stupid. There needs to be more imprisonment reasons in general. The only way now if really if theyre part of an active plot.

Regency actions for instance should have possible repercussions. If someone changes your laws during regency or gives your titles away you should be able to imprison and torture that fucker to death without any tyranny. He kinda had it coming. Also, inheritance that fucks up your internal borders should be able to be resolved without tyranny. Right now you have to go to such extreme lenght just to sort it out again if you dont want to incur tyranny so its kinda stupid. You shouldnt need to exterminate the entire dynasty of a loyal capable vassal just because some shit ass count under him decided to marry wrong and inherit another county in another vassals lands.

It would be nice to have an option to get your vassals to trade land to resolve the issue of border gore.

 

[Asphyxion]

It would be nice to have an option to get your vassals to trade land to resolve the issue of border gore.

Yeah just force them to trade land really. The annoying part is the Counts under your dukes are the real criminals here always trying to plot their way to dishonestly acquire more land. That's why I try not to blob too much since it becomes too hard keeping track of them and prevent any crimes Before they happened. In a medium size realm it's manageable to click on all counties and check who they're married too every 10-15 years and then execute people to resolve any illegal inheritance.

It feels bad to end the dynasty of a good duke because his count vassals are inheriting counties they shouldnt but I guess he had it coming for not performing the duties I delegated too him.

 

[Eicna]

I also find it ridiculous that I can't imprison the guy who is fucking my daughters.
I thought this kind of stuff is high treason in those days?

 

[Blk82]

There was never any case of someone owning a duchy in Northern England and then owning a duchy down in Spain too.

In the medieval period, it was quite common for large landowners to own lands in multiple countries. The kings actually liked internal border gore: if a large landowner's property was located in one area, launching a rebellion was much easier.

 

[Scerdilaidas]

In real life people would generally hold lands in the same general area. Not own a small county on the other side of the world. For purely logistical reasons. There was never any case of someone owning a duchy in Northern England and then owning a duchy down in Spain too.

I see your claim and I raise you an abnormally extended jaw.

 

[makaramus]

I see your claim and I raise you an abnormally extended jaw.

*turns the guy next to him*
can we count hre nations? yes? ok
*turns back to guy he is discussing*
It appears they can

well jokes aside I must say HRE is questionable because on paper holy roman emperor was still holding entire Empire as his own... ON PAPER I remind you
so it makes sense to have shattered land pieces...
Also people that say "it doesnt make sense you can control 2 distant land"
Whenever I control 2 distant land I am like "oh f..." because I know its just like I am playing 2 diffrent nation at the same time now... their armies will almost never unite and if anyone smiler to my power attack me I may lose the war before I reach to reinforce there especially if I cant use my navy to reach target destination. so you feel it in game actually

 

[Nick B II]

In the medieval period, it was quite common for large landowners to own lands in multiple countries. The kings actually liked internal border gore: if a large landowner's property was located in one area, launching a rebellion was much easier.

If you look at an actual map of the holdings of any English nobleman, they're all over the place, and that's because William the Conquerer did not want there to be one dude who was "the Duke of the West."

It would be nice to have an option to get your vassals to trade land to resolve the issue of border gore.

Wanna see an example of border gore?

That's the Duchy of Cornwall. It's one of the few remaining "Honours" granted to a British nobleman by the British Crown. Almost any holding in England post William the Conquerer should include baronies literally all over the country, because back in France there were a bunch of dudes who had really compact realms that they constantly used to fight the King. The Conquerer and his successors did not want that. In other words, in the actual Middle Ages "Border Gore" was a feature, not a bug. In fact one of the problems Robert the Bruce had was that a lot of Scots nobleman actually had land in both countries. Including Bruce, whose family owned land near London. The Kingdom of England itself at various points in this period owned damn near all of France.

In other words, puzzle-piece maps, border-gore, whatever you want to call it, should actually be a lot more prominent in CK2. "Fixing" it should be very hard.