why can't i change religion during a war?

[unmerged(614575)]

what's the rationale? particularly now that you have the three reformation centers changing religion is a particularly sensitive issue, imagine this:

i am england, i am in a pretty good position but anxious to convert to protestantism so that my colonies have my same religion, only game where france is taking a beating from burgundy i am (of course) its ally and in a war, can't exit it without giving large concessions, what happens?

the protestant reformation happens and all the centers of reformation are now taken and i trash the ironman game to start over (let's hope henry vi dies quickly again...)

ps. this happened this morning hence the post

 

[Draecesstra]

so, how long have u been at war?

"all the centers of reformation" ok, so, first you have been at war while the first 3 converted to protestand and after some years the reformed centers appeared and you still were at war? You could also have checked the reform desire, at 95% protestant can appear.

Protestant:

The Protestant religion does not exist yet.
The country religion is catholic.
The owner is not Defender of the faith.
The owner has no papal government.
The reform desire is at least 0.95.
The country has no reform center

Reformed:
These conditions are: (Reformed centers)

The Protestant faith exists.
At least 15 years have passed since the Protestant Reformation.
The Reformed faith does not exist yet.
The country is not Defender of the faith.
The country is either catholic or Protestant.
The country doesn't have the Papal government.
The country's capital is in Europe
The country has no reform center

 

[Frossa]

There are a lot of vital functions you can't use during war, probably more as game mechanics than representations of real life situations. I would imagine converting to a new religion would require a lot of governmental reforms that in real life, that a state at war would not be able to go through with.

 

[unmerged(614575)]

so, how long have u been at war?

"all the centers of reformation" ok, so, first you have been at war while the first 3 converted to protestand and after some years the reformed centers appeared and you still were at war? You could also have checked the reform desire, at 95% protestant can appear.

Protestant:

The Protestant religion does not exist yet.
The country religion is catholic.
The owner is not Defender of the faith.
The owner has no papal government.
The reform desire is at least 0.95.
The country has no reform center

Reformed:
These conditions are: (Reformed centers)

The Protestant faith exists.
At least 15 years have passed since the Protestant Reformation.
The Reformed faith does not exist yet.
The country is not Defender of the faith.
The country is either catholic or Protestant.
The country doesn't have the Papal government.
The country's capital is in Europe
The country has no reform center

i want to become protestant, the protestant centers of reformation were taken in less than 1y and i couldn't exit the war

plus i dont want to wait another 50 years or something...

 

[Draecesstra]

you can still be protestand without a center.
you cant do shit while at war, thats nothing new, no vassalintegration start, nearly no alliance, not joining religios league.

if u "must have" a center (god knows why you would need one), then take care of reform desire and dont start wars 90%+.

 

[Draecesstra]

or just convert to protestant and if you feel like " i want a center" conquer it.

 

[unmerged(614575)]

you can still be protestand without a center.
you cant do shit while at war, thats nothing new, no vassalintegration start, nearly no alliance, not joining religios league.

if u "must have" a center (god knows why you would need one), then take care of reform desire and dont start wars 90%+.

i know, what i am stressing is that this mechanic should be re-thought now that you have only 3 centers of reformation

i want one to speed up conversion, in order to protect it and not to get a reformed one, which all seem like sufficiently valid reasons to me

 

[Draecesstra]

i know, what i am stressing is that this mechanic should be re-thought now that you have only 3 centers of reformation

i want one to speed up conversion, in order to protect it and not to get a reformed one, which all seem like sufficiently valid reasons to me

if u want all, you have to sacrifice, conquer one or dont be at war. or be always at war and complain.

Your reasons are just, i want it easier.
want to protect? dotf, guarantee, conquer.
faster conversion? they will convert your provinces, they dont care about borders, just distance and "catholic provinces in protestant country" are priority for the centers.

there are 6 centers....

if you get a reformed one, get the achievement and convert it... converting a nation with religios zeal is already easy.

maybe you should directly ask for a button, "dear player, do you want to be the first?" would work perfect in multiplayer.

i really dont get you point. you can still do what you want, now it take 10 months more for your nation.

i dont see your problem, i just see solutions....

 

[yerm]

i know, what i am stressing is that this mechanic should be re-thought now that you have only 3 centers of reformation

i want one to speed up conversion, in order to protect it and not to get a reformed one, which all seem like sufficiently valid reasons to me

Center of Reformation is a luxury, honestly. Safest bet is to wait for reformed to trigger before you convert to Pro, and if you got stuck with the reformed center, time it so your +10% conversion will allow you take down the Reformed center. Still a headache but not a huge problem. If you aren't saddled with it, just convert to protestant away...

One thing to note is that by taking a CoR for yourself, you are denying one somewhere else, and the potential conversions and league allies that come with it.

 

[unmerged(614575)]

if u want all, you have to sacrifice, conquer one or dont be at war. or be always at war and complain.

Your reasons are just, i want it easier.
want to protect? dotf, guarantee, conquer.
faster conversion? they will convert your provinces, they dont care about borders, just distance and "catholic provinces in protestant country" are priority for the centers.

there are 6 centers....

if you get a reformed one, get the achievement and convert it... converting a nation with religios zeal is already easy.

maybe you should directly ask for a button, "dear player, do you want to be the first?" would work perfect in multiplayer.

i really dont get you point. you can still do what you want, now it take 10 months more for your nation.

i dont see your problem, i just see solutions....

i rather dont see the point of your post. why in real life shouldn't i be allowed to convert while at war? this is the subject of the post.

my second point is that this mechanic was not really relevant before the introduction of the centers of reformation, but it is now as being in a war would preclude me from getting one given that they go away in months...

additionally how would you like to justify the fact (already pointed out in one of my previous post) that usually (as in the game at hand) one of the centers goes in denmark and another a couple of provinces away in sweden? utterly pointless...

then if your purpose is to just criticize anyone trying to start a discussion you are off topic here.

 

[yerm]

i rather dont see the point of your post. why in real life shouldn't i be allowed to convert while at war? this is the subject of the post.

my second point is that this mechanic was not really relevant before the introduction of the centers of reformation, but it is now as being in a war would preclude me from getting one given that they go away in months...

additionally how would you like to justify the fact (already pointed out in one of my previous post) that usually (as in the game at hand) one of the centers goes in denmark and another a couple of provinces away in sweden? utterly pointless...

then if your purpose is to just criticize anyone trying to start a discussion you are off topic here.

Hey buddy, slow your roll. We get that you're furious you couldn't have a center in your recent Ironman. Calm down though, we ARE trying to have a discussion!

The gameplay reasons are straightforward. First and foremost, many major decisions require you to be at peace to prevent possible and unforeseen abuse of said mechanics. Converting during war would cause a few problems I can already see: first and foremost, it hands you a pile of gold, which could be seen as a huge advantage for someone who can immediately dump it into mercs. It would also allow you to convert right before enforcing peace, which would circumvent the huge prestige loss. There's the problem with the idea of enforcing religion (or just having used the religion cb) despite your own religion changing midfight.

You have the historic idea of changing religion in war, which is a bit shaky. Part of the problem here is that wars were less specific in reality, and a country could be "at war" for long lengths of time, but not actively engaged in or participating in a war. In game you are at war or at peace, no middle ground, no open hostility, no raiding or skirmishing. So, if you take in-game war to be a time of direct engagement when both parties are actively engaged in battle, the argument becomes that a monarch cannot wrestle away control of the state church and enforce such a radical change in the state-sponsored religion while also leading armies. The argument here becomes, peace out of the war if you want to engage in peace-time activity like changing religion.

For your case, it's hard for us not to see this as a gripe more than a problem. If you REALLY wanted that center of reformation, you could have made peace, you just might have had to actually give something up (god forbid ever doing that in sp) to be able to peace out. If you are terrified of a reformation CoR cropping into your nation, you could grab catholic DotF until reformed pops and THEN go protestant. Or save scum. Hell, you could probably have save scummed the second protestant itself hit. Frankly it sounds like you just want everything to work out and are not able to handle the idea that you may need to suffer a loss or make a really hard choice between concessions or a center. Quitting the game because you have to spend an extra couple years converting is outrageous.

 

[unmerged(614575)]

Hey buddy, slow your roll. We get that you're furious you couldn't have a center in your recent Ironman. Calm down though, we ARE trying to have a discussion!

The gameplay reasons are straightforward. First and foremost, many major decisions require you to be at peace to prevent possible and unforeseen abuse of said mechanics. Converting during war would cause a few problems I can already see: first and foremost, it hands you a pile of gold, which could be seen as a huge advantage for someone who can immediately dump it into mercs. It would also allow you to convert right before enforcing peace, which would circumvent the huge prestige loss. There's the problem with the idea of enforcing religion (or just having used the religion cb) despite your own religion changing midfight.

You have the historic idea of changing religion in war, which is a bit shaky. Part of the problem here is that wars were less specific in reality, and a country could be "at war" for long lengths of time, but not actively engaged in or participating in a war. In game you are at war or at peace, no middle ground, no open hostility, no raiding or skirmishing. So, if you take in-game war to be a time of direct engagement when both parties are actively engaged in battle, the argument becomes that a monarch cannot wrestle away control of the state church and enforce such a radical change in the state-sponsored religion while also leading armies. The argument here becomes, peace out of the war if you want to engage in peace-time activity like changing religion.

For your case, it's hard for us not to see this as a gripe more than a problem. If you REALLY wanted that center of reformation, you could have made peace, you just might have had to actually give something up (god forbid ever doing that in sp) to be able to peace out. If you are terrified of a reformation CoR cropping into your nation, you could grab catholic DotF until reformed pops and THEN go protestant. Or save scum. Hell, you could probably have save scummed the second protestant itself hit. Frankly it sounds like you just want everything to work out and are not able to handle the idea that you may need to suffer a loss or make a really hard choice between concessions or a center. Quitting the game because you have to spend an extra couple years converting is outrageous.

lol, it did disturb me but i am trying to have a discussion as long as no one mentions "let me be first buttons".

secondly, i am not going for first here, that's easy and even if it wasn't i don't really care, i think i am not the only one here trying to improve its performance play after play or sets its own objectives.

thirdly, your reasons about not being able to convert make sense, but you can see the frustration of being dragged into a land war allied with france, not being able to convert and to see all the centers go away, and the frustration comes for three, i hope you find agreeable, reasons:

1- i couldnt be attacked or blockaded by anyone, france attacked burgundy+castille and was having his a** served... i wasn't gonna send my troops in, but i had by far the largest fleet, so i was safe, if i just waited, they'd have had nothing from me (otherwise, of course, i wouldn't have entered)

2- notwithstanding the fact that burgundy could have never obtained anything from me if i just waited however long it took for the war to end (the rest of my game wouldn't have been affected in any way), it was asking me to release the whole of ireland+reparations to bow out (i was not co-belligerent)

3- the centers went away in months... and they were ridiculously (imho) close to each other... (i hope my distaste at the denmark+sweden cor combo that i keep seeing is coming across in its full extent)

now, all the points you made seem very valid, but in this case your rationale is more linked to war exhaustion than to the fact of being at war, as we know very well that countries can be involved in very different types of war

 

[yerm]

So, an argument would be that you should be able to carry out certain matters of state as long as you are not a belligerent in a war, perhaps? Seems kinda reasonable, but still doesn't work.

Game mechanics wise, the fact that conversion is a huge +gold -prestige hit, by itself, makes it exploitable if you can do that during a war. If you're winning a war, you can convert to avoid the prestige; if you're losing, convert to use the gold for a comeback with mercs or dotf. That's just what I can think of, I'd assume other people could game it even more, especially with the religious cb at play.

2. The problem here seems to be more the fact that enemies do not white peace out opponents despite it being in their best interest. This is a glaring problem with the ai, who should absolutely want to remove every non-target enemy they possibly can with a BONUS to wanting white peace. The problem here is not that religion needs you to be at peace.

1. You are playing like a human. AI do not do that. If you enter a war, you go balls deep unless you are physically incapable of doing so. If Ireland was a vassal, they likely would have been dumping troops, losing them, building more, and repeating. The AI has no concept of waiting out a war unless the reason is a lack of any chance at access. In burgundy's mind, you were not a nonparticipant, you were bugged and your troops were stuck, as no other explanation exists to the ai for why someone would not suicide repeatedly until bankrupt every war.

3. Denmark and Sweden were, historically, protestant. England is the big name because of how outrageous Henry VIII made the ordeal, and the statute in restraint and dissing the monasteries are England, but it's not really a solid case that they should actually have a CoR based on history, rather than just converting. Denmark has a better claim to a CoR based on history, and Sweden and England are rather equal in my opinion in claiming one. Whatever the case, Protestant CoRs shooting up across Scandinavia IS historically accurate. My personal assumption is that Wittenburg gets Protestant and Geneva the Reformed starting CoR, and you then have to argue who'd get the next 2 of each.

 

[unmerged(614575)]

So, an argument would be that you should be able to carry out certain matters of state as long as you are not a belligerent in a war, perhaps? Seems kinda reasonable, but still doesn't work.

Game mechanics wise, the fact that conversion is a huge +gold -prestige hit, by itself, makes it exploitable if you can do that during a war. If you're winning a war, you can convert to avoid the prestige; if you're losing, convert to use the gold for a comeback with mercs or dotf. That's just what I can think of, I'd assume other people could game it even more, especially with the religious cb at play.

2. The problem here seems to be more the fact that enemies do not white peace out opponents despite it being in their best interest. This is a glaring problem with the ai, who should absolutely want to remove every non-target enemy they possibly can with a BONUS to wanting white peace. The problem here is not that religion needs you to be at peace.

1. You are playing like a human. AI do not do that. If you enter a war, you go balls deep unless you are physically incapable of doing so. If Ireland was a vassal, they likely would have been dumping troops, losing them, building more, and repeating. The AI has no concept of waiting out a war unless the reason is a lack of any chance at access. In burgundy's mind, you were not a nonparticipant, you were bugged and your troops were stuck, as no other explanation exists to the ai for why someone would not suicide repeatedly until bankrupt every war.

3. Denmark and Sweden were, historically, protestant. England is the big name because of how outrageous Henry VIII made the ordeal, and the statute in restraint and dissing the monasteries are England, but it's not really a solid case that they should actually have a CoR based on history, rather than just converting. Denmark has a better claim to a CoR based on history, and Sweden and England are rather equal in my opinion in claiming one. Whatever the case, Protestant CoRs shooting up across Scandinavia IS historically accurate. My personal assumption is that Wittenburg gets Protestant and Geneva the Reformed starting CoR, and you then have to argue who'd get the next 2 of each.

ok i agree on almost everything, yet this outlines a series of imperfections in the game mechanics that didn't allow me to carry out my state affairs while being in a war de jure, but not de facto.

regarding 3- i am human, hence i should be able to change history no? but the centers went away so fast that i didnt have a chance of untangle the situation...

you say that several centers of reformation should spawn across sweden, but you are then imagining a situation where there are several (4-5-6...) centers of reformation... but in a world where we have 3 this, imho, doesn't work...

i argued in favor of adding 1 more, maybe making them less powerful, because in several of my games england never converts (and scotland not always, to reformed) due to the fact that the centers tend to spawn all (too) close to each other, 1 in germany and 2 in scandinavia...

 

[yerm]

I'm arguing a CoR starting in Wittenburg, Denmark and Bohemia for protestant, with England just hard converting since he's not earning papal points, follows history. One in England and/or Sweden is not out line. A reformed CoR spawning in Switzerland, and one in Scotland and Netherlands, with Prussia hard converting, also makes sense. Sometimes the line between which would be protestant and which reformed can be a tough one to draw. Having a CoR in Sweden and Denmark both, which were arguably "protestant" in what the game would term it BEFORE England was, is not ahistoric. Nothing about England being protestant without the CoR goes against History, and in fact, trying to be Protestant and having issues with a Scottish CoR would follow history!

I am very much in favor of more CoRs. One spawns, one for first conversion, and I'd argue one from the first DotF and one from a costly decision, for 4 each. Also, a catholic one in Rome and one more Catholic one from either DotF or first to embrace counter-reformation. I think some people would get extremely frustrated, though, from all this back-and-forth CoR converting.

At the end of the day you really need to reconsider ditching a game that was going well because you didn't get a protestant CoR. They're really not THAT good!