Berg's very first idea is called 'The Heirs of Lotharingia', so why can't they reform Lotharingia if they meet the requirements?
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Why can Berg not restore Lotharingia?
- Thread starter Kurfürstin Adelheid
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Maybe they should. Only thing is they are a republic whereas Berg is a monarchy claiming a direct dynastic link.
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A republican Lotharingia tree for Aachen would be very fun. Both Berg and Aachen just have the generic Rhenish/Westphalian missions which are really quiet dull, especially in relation to the other HRE regional ones.
Well, in this game every Free Imperial City can become a kingdom.
I think the reasoning behind this is because it was concieved by franks or french-speaking people, that is why Burgundy and Lorraine are allowed to do that. Anyway, seeing how Montferrat can restore Byzantium, i see no reason why Berg or Aachen shouldn't be allowed to restore Lotharingia.
But the Franks were a Germanic tribe and Lotharingia was one of the 5 'younger' stem duchies of the HRE...So not being French shouldn't be a barrier in this case, given both Berg and Aachen are located where Francia and Lotharingia were. And as you say, since Montferrat can reform Byzantium based on dynastic link, Berg should be able to as well.
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Also, being able to form Lotharingia would make Berg more appealing to play as. Right now there are not a lot of reasons to pick them over any of the electorates in the region (unless you really don't like theocracies), Hesse etc. since their ideas aren't so good in comparison as well...
True but there is a mild discouragement to doing that as Aachen since the bonus is only for republican tradition and there is no legitimacy equivalent if you switch to being a monarchy - the idea becomes useless.
That can be easily updated - many countries already have an alternative set in their NI (like RP instead of Legitimacy or Church power/Fervor instead of Papal Authority).
Also, shouldn't this option apply to the many western-german tags? Like in Alsace and Netherlands?
Alsace was part of Alamannia, Frankish vassal (though at once point it was under more direct control I think), and Swabia, which it can form, so I don't think being able to form Lotharingia would fit. I focus on Berg and Aachen because they have ideas linking to it.
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Yes. I was just thinking about it because of the 'Charlemagne's Capital' idea Aachen has, they used to be capital of Francia. I think I've seen Aachen being able to form Francia in a mod somewhere. However Francia might be too old to realistically be reformable in EU4 since it broke up into West, Middle and East Francia after Charlemagne's son Louis died (over 500 years before game start), but on the other hand you can reform the Roman Empire, so? Usually I would say something like that belongs more to Crusader Kings than EU4 but with Lotharingia being formable and the Angevin Empire being formable in the new patch, maybe now is the time?
I see your point, but I doubt it will ever see the light of the day, because adding new tags isn't likely (didn't stop them from making Lattgalia and Angevines). But the devs did open the can of worms by adding Lotharingia.
Will do.
I thought that was more to do with starting tags rather than formables?
Yeah, I just think it's a shame to have some of these interesting old countries reformable but not others. On a related note I would really like a formable for Rhenish countries that isn't Westphalia.
Something like 'Rhineland'. I know there isn't a great historical basis for it but it isn't like Westphalia is on solid ground either, the Westphalia you can form at ADM 10 is the Napoleonic client state and the ideas and formation decision have this 'revolutionary' aspect which shouldn't really be present given how early you can form them. Also without a Rhenish formable you end up in this position where:
Austrian Primary Nation -> Austria
Bavarian Primary Nation -> Bavaria
Franconian Primary Nation -> Franconia
Lower Saxony Primary Nation -> Hannover
Pomeranian Primary Nation -> Pomerania
Prussian Primary Nation -> Prussia
Saxon Primary Nation -> Saxony
Swabian Primary Nation -> Swabia
Swiss Primary Nation -> Switzerland
Westphalian Primary Nation -> Westphalia
Rhenish Primary Nation -> Hesse
So all the other primary nations of their culture are the formable/reformable regional tags, aside from Hesse because there is no Rhenish formable.
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You are right. But Rheinland (I mean the Confederation of Rheine) was a Napoleonic client state as well. Unless we have any other foundation for it.
I would agree with the suggestion for allowing Berg and Aachen to form Lotharingia. I would propose to also extend that right to Brabant, as the Duke of Brabant was linked to the honorific title Duke of Lothier which was a successor to Lower Lorraine. Although by this point it was purely honorific, it's not inconceivable for an independent and powerful Duke of Brabant to use it as justification to lay claim to much of the former territories of Lower Lorraine, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if Philip the Good and Charles the Bold did exactly that. Reforming Lotharingia would be a nice alternative path for Brabant to forming the Netherlands.
It would also be nice to have some cultural dynamics here too: the differences and borders between Dutch and Rhenish in this time were unclear, blurry and yet to be defined; the speech of Limburg and Guelders was closer to Cleves and Cologne than Holland, let alone West Flanders or Friesland, but this isn't really reflected in the game. Cologne was sometimes considered the capital of the Low Countries because for quite some time it was the largest city in the region and what constitutes the Low Countries was ambiguous. For a Lotharingia that rules the Rhineland, Low Countries and Alsace-Lorraine region to unify the Germanic speakers into one Lotharingian culture wouldn't be very unrealistic, linguistically the differences are smaller than Low and High German.
I think the Rhineland would be a nice alternative for Cleves/Berg/Julich/Cologne/etc. that would have lower territorial requirements and is unlimited to specific tags but perhaps would only be possible at a higher admin level.
It would also be nice to have some cultural dynamics here too: the differences and borders between Dutch and Rhenish in this time were unclear, blurry and yet to be defined; the speech of Limburg and Guelders was closer to Cleves and Cologne than Holland, let alone West Flanders or Friesland, but this isn't really reflected in the game. Cologne was sometimes considered the capital of the Low Countries because for quite some time it was the largest city in the region and what constitutes the Low Countries was ambiguous. For a Lotharingia that rules the Rhineland, Low Countries and Alsace-Lorraine region to unify the Germanic speakers into one Lotharingian culture wouldn't be very unrealistic, linguistically the differences are smaller than Low and High German.
I think the Rhineland would be a nice alternative for Cleves/Berg/Julich/Cologne/etc. that would have lower territorial requirements and is unlimited to specific tags but perhaps would only be possible at a higher admin level.
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