Why are Xenophile and Xenophobia Starting Traits?

[hiphopcyclops]

It strikes me as odd that xenophile and xenophobia are available as starting traits for a faction. Since all players start as species/factions with no knowledge of other sentient species/alien factions, it doesn't make much sense for these traits to be available to the player (or are at the very least misnamed). It would be like a man who grew up in the desert, having never seen the ocean (and having only a faint belief that it actually exists), having a preordained hatred of saltwater fish/seafood.

To me, if the broad traits of xenophilia and xenophobia are to be kept, it would make more sense if xenophilia and xenophobia only arose as traits depending on your faction's general dealings with other species, and could change over time with your pops depending on the planets your pops are on, the interactions those planets have had with aliens (I.E., a planet gets nuked a bunch by an alien species, becomes distrusting of aliens in general, or rampant migration has made them uncomfortable).

Xenophilia would make sense as a starting trait if player (or AI) factions could start that were a mix of different sentient species, like the Tau in WH40k. That way it would make sense that your faction developed an affinity for other sentient life based on past experience. Xenophobia would likewise also make sense as a starting trait in a similar situation, as maybe one species got the short end of the stick and is enslaved by a dominant species in the faction.

Otherwise, I think the two traits should be removed, as xenophilia/xenophobia should be on a species-by-species basis, and incorporated into diplomacy rather than pop traits.

 

[Surimi]

It makes sense in that it denotes the spirit under which these species are setting out to explore the stars. You can see this in their reactions to exploration events (like discovering precursor remnants) even before they encounter alien species. Xenophobes are excited about the possibility of discovering alien life. Xenophobes are much more fearful and seem more interested in identifying potential threats.

 

[Oscot]

You don't need to have met aliens to know that you want to genocide them on first contact.

You just need to have read The Killing Star.

 

[Seomis]

Xenophilia/xenophobia can exist pre-FTL in the form of racism. Maybe decadent xenophobes could even start with a subspecies it can enslave (though maybe that's starting to get too close to real social ills for comfort).

 

[happyscrub]

Maybe they wiped out all their subspecies.

Like if someone pee'd on an Eskimo igloo, making them mad to where they wage war on the world wiping out all the other human races....

 

[Oscot]

Xenophilia/xenophobia can exist pre-FTL in the form of racism. Maybe decadent xenophobes could even start with a subspecies it can enslave (though maybe that's starting to get too close to real social ills for comfort).

You can literally kick the Jews out of your country in CK2.

Everyone rightly mocked the Women In History EUIV meme, but the occasional crazy missfire nonewithstanding, Paradox is usually quite good at avoiding the memory hole and instead giving players the warts-and-all of (future) history.

 

[LughC]

Really? Just look right now at humans. Many of us actively seek out and hope to find another form of life, particularly another intelligent one. Others fear that the discovery of another intelligent race would be the beginning of the end. Xenophobia and xenophial are traits a race can take on well before encountering another race.

 

[Fenris_SE]

It strikes me as odd that xenophile and xenophobia are available as starting traits for a faction. Since all players start as species/factions with no knowledge of other sentient species/alien factions, it doesn't make much sense for these traits to be available to the player (or are at the very least misnamed). It would be like a man who grew up in the desert, having never seen the ocean (and having only a faint belief that it actually exists), having a preordained hatred of saltwater fish/seafood.

To me, if the broad traits of xenophilia and xenophobia are to be kept, it would make more sense if xenophilia and xenophobia only arose as traits depending on your faction's general dealings with other species, and could change over time with your pops depending on the planets your pops are on, the interactions those planets have had with aliens (I.E., a planet gets nuked a bunch by an alien species, becomes distrusting of aliens in general, or rampant migration has made them uncomfortable).

Xenophilia would make sense as a starting trait if player (or AI) factions could start that were a mix of different sentient species, like the Tau in WH40k. That way it would make sense that your faction developed an affinity for other sentient life based on past experience. Xenophobia would likewise also make sense as a starting trait in a similar situation, as maybe one species got the short end of the stick and is enslaved by a dominant species in the faction.

Otherwise, I think the two traits should be removed, as xenophilia/xenophobia should be on a species-by-species basis, and incorporated into diplomacy rather than pop traits.

Seems fine to me as starting traits. I have some friends that would freak out if they ever met an alien. I don't think they'd try to kill that alien, but it's not too hard for me to imagine that some people would take it to the the extreme if they ever met an alien. Think about some well known, mostly feared, and despised leaders in our planets own past. I'm pretty sure some of those leaders would have various reasons for trying to wipe out aliens as soon as they met them.

I'd love to meet aliens, and most of my friends would as well, so I can pretty easily see having xenophilia as a starting trait.

In your example of having never met aliens and wondering where those traits would come from. I think it's more about how people would react when put in that situation and not so much what they have experienced during their lifetime.

 

[hiphopcyclops]

Really? Just look right now at humans. Many of us actively seek out and hope to find another form of life, particularly another intelligent one. Others fear that the discovery of another intelligent race would be the beginning of the end. Xenophobia and xenophial are traits a race can take on well before encountering another race.

I'm aware that we as humans differ in our views on the likelihood of existence/proper or perceived response to the existence of aliens and first contact with said-aliens, but I think you'd agree that such xenophobic tendencies are more typically resulting from spiritual or political beliefs rather than an inherent fear of/love for/toward the concept of aliens, which is why I think xenophobia/xenopholia are not really appropriate names for core civilization traits. Xenophilia should probably be called something like Natural Explorers and Xenophobia Isolationists based on their general function in-game.

Alternatively they could have xenophobia/xenophobia be event-based rather than an inherent trait? I.E., pops react divergently after first contact, and you can influence them with propaganda campaigns/event choices to try and steer them one way or another or bring them to an equilibrium on the issue.

 

[gdj]

I'm aware that we as humans differ in our views on the likelihood of existence/proper or perceived response to the existence of aliens and first contact with said-aliens, but I think you'd agree that such xenophobic tendencies are more typically resulting from spiritual or political beliefs rather than an inherent fear of/love for/toward the concept of aliens, which is why I think xenophobia/xenopholia are not really appropriate names for core civilization traits.

It´s a possible interpretation, but i doubt it. Spiritual or political beliefs may be a starting point for cultural change (one of many for that matter), but cultural features themselves once shaped are very persistent and change only very slowly if at all. Just consider how long militarism was a stereotypical feature of Japanese culture, even though the country was at peace for centuries after the 1600s.

Xenophobic as a starting ethos makes sense, as the more tightly knit commmunities are, the more "something froum outside" may be seen as a potential threat, even if that "something" is entirely unknown yet. If there is a contradiction in starting ethoses at all, i´d say individualism and xenophobia is a unlikely (but not impossible) mix.

Even so, the new ethics system that is announced will likely reconcile both viewpoints, as irrespective of your starting ethos, your actions will determine in which direction your culture will evolve.

 

[The Founder]

First of all, until Banks rolls out there is no way to change a empire Ethos. So you have to start with it. Or never have it.

Xenophilia/xenophobia can exist pre-FTL in the form of racism. Maybe decadent xenophobes could even start with a subspecies it can enslave (though maybe that's starting to get too close to real social ills for comfort).

Pretty much how radical Muslims view the western/christian world. And radical westerners view all Muslims.
Or how we literally had a empire focussed on the extermantion of several human races*

Xeno just means "different".
Skincolor. Religion. Cultural upbringing. Comming from another land. Comming from another planet.
It differs in how those otherbeings are "Xeno". Not how you react to the foreign stuff. The general Phobia or Philia does not change.




*The very idea of races is Xenophoibic. The only purpose is to set yourself appart based on miniscule external differences. We invented races for animal breeding, damit. Only later did we consdier to apply it to humans.

It would be like a man who grew up in the desert, having never seen the ocean (and having only a faint belief that it actually exists), having a preordained hatred of saltwater fish/seafood.

Funny enough, that is what would most likely happen. Xenophobia towards other cultures or Ethnicities is lower, the more people were subject to it during thier upbringing.
He has never seen that stuff before, he will have a hard time eating it at first. But within 1-2 generations, that is lost. Unless it is culturally reinforced (like Levitikus from the Old Testament does). Then it may take 10-20 generations.

Since all players start as species/factions with no knowledge of other sentient species/alien factions, it doesn't make much sense for these traits to be available to the player (or are at the very least misnamed).

The polen and viruses on a alien planet can be more deadly then a sentient species. So there is plenty of stuff able to kill you.
Someone mentioned a while back that the traditions sounded a lot like Civilisations Beyond Earth Paths. But that goes back to Xenophobia/Philia, actually.

The CoM intro even mentioned them "having issues using terran crops on Unity". Apparently they never even considered just using local crops to begin with.

 

[Aries666]

Considering xenophobe is currently used to describe someone who doesn't like people belonging to other nations/cultures/ethnicities and xenophile is simply its opposite I don't see any reason why a race can't start with these ethics. Also bear in mind that at game start planetary unification hasn't even happened which implies that there would still be nation states, members of which could all hate/love one another prior to the discovery of alien life which they could go on to love/hate instead.

 

[The_Meme_Man]

Considering the ethos are just the prevailing planetary ideology, and as far as we know an intelligent lifeform must ponder on the existance of "others" (and we have wondered about space aliens as long as we knew the atmosphere was finite), it would be strange for a race to not have an ethos regarding viewing other intelligent life.

Xenophobe comes from a culture of "Independence Day" and "XCom 2"....or Nazis.

Xenophile comes from a culture of "ET", "Star Trek" and "Tumblr".

No relevant ethos means the population doesnt really care either way. They wont actively heterogenize their species, but theycwont stop it either.

Now, consider humans. We are pretty split or apathetic about aliens, but we do have more hostile views depicted in our culture as a species than positive views.

 

[gdj]

No relevant ethos means the population doesnt really care either way. They wont actively heterogenize their species, but theycwont stop it either.

I do believe that the current ethos definitions do imply one of the directions or the other, even if neither xenophile nor xenophobe is chosen. I find it hard to ideologically reconcile individualism and xenophobia, viewing everyone as a distinct individual but rejecting an entire group (or indeed anyone outside your group). Likewise, collectivism is not really fitting with xenophile ideology, being open to integrate anyone in your collective - including persons who dont believe in collectives.

I think the devs made the right choice to redefine the ethoses to "egalitarian" and "totalitarian", i matches up way better with xenophile and xenophobe - and makes picking either of the two more logical to begin with.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I find it hard to ideologically reconcile individualism and xenophobia, viewing everyone as a distinct individual but rejecting an entire group (or indeed anyone outside your group).

People can be individuals and still be reprehensible to you, still be an existential threat to you.

Likewise, collectivism is not really fitting with xenophile ideology, being open to integrate anyone in your collective - including persons who dont believe in collectives.

A collective is clearly for the good of all- and if you love everyone, even outsiders, clearly you'll want the best for them, even if they don't realize that its for the greater good yet.

 

[gdj]

People can be individuals and still be reprehensible to you, still be an existential threat to you.


A collective is clearly for the good of all- and if you love everyone, even outsiders, clearly you'll want the best for them, even if they don't realize that its for the greater good yet.

Sure, it´s possible to argue that way, and there are few historical examples of either. But it´s a rare and unusual combination, and not the obvious, more logical combo. The opposite of it is much more prevalent, past and present.

 

[The_Meme_Man]

I do believe that the current ethos definitions do imply one of the directions or the other, even if neither xenophile nor xenophobe is chosen. I find it hard to ideologically reconcile individualism and xenophobia, viewing everyone as a distinct individual but rejecting an entire group (or indeed anyone outside your group). Likewise, collectivism is not really fitting with xenophile ideology, being open to integrate anyone in your collective - including persons who dont believe in collectives.

I think the devs made the right choice to redefine the ethoses to "egalitarian" and "totalitarian", i matches up way better with xenophile and xenophobe - and makes picking either of the two more logical to begin with.

I think one key point to not is that this is xenophobia and xenophilia attitudes against other species. I mean, the two are supposed to also be targeted against members of the same species as well, but as far as the game is concerned "xenophilia" and "xenophobia" are about attitudes towards other species of aliens, who can for all intents and purposes be seen as either:
a) just like us, because they are intelligent
or
b) animals, because they aren't us

Xenophobia against humans on Earth, for example, not to delve too deep, despite the number of mental gynmastics bigots must go through, all humans are ultimately still considered "human" even to them, just that some humans are much less liked than others. Won't be the same with aliens, where they CAN be simply regarded as "animals" because they are literally a different species. Obviously, being xenophilic, or at least tolerant, to differences within the species would encourage open mindedness towards intelligent races of other species, it isn't guaranteed. Enough tales of alien abductions, alien invasions, aliens probing butts, aliens resembling ugly versions of the home species, aliens being associated with the mysterious and spooky, and aliens being associated with dark religious beliefs and lore will encourage a culture that would be xenophobic to aliens while being very liberal when it comes to home species. Those beliefs have to be reinforced though, since beliefs can change very quickly in a matter of a few generations as long as biology permits it, which is why it makes sense that it is UNLIKELY that a free liberal society will be xenophobic towards other species (since there is a likelihood of lots of media equally predicting how great it would be to find aliens just as much as how horrible it would be, if not more).

Humans I think are borderline xenophobic, though not quite there. We are very fascinated and curious, but also scared, probably a belief that is carried from when other hominid species actually existed alongside us. Having enemies on Earth might encourage it though, since we are still a divided species unlike the start of Stellaris.


Ultimately though, ethoses are still oversimplified. I mean, for Xenophilia alone, there is liberal happy-go-lucky paradise Xenophilia, sexual Xenophilia, expantionist Xenophilia, slight-curiosity-but-don't-come-too-close Xenophilia, and Xenophilia purely for diplomatic convenience and nothing more. There really should be sliders or MORE magnitudes for an ethos than just (ethos) and (fanatic ethos).

 

[The Founder]

I do believe that the current ethos definitions do imply one of the directions or the other, even if neither xenophile nor xenophobe is chosen. I find it hard to ideologically reconcile individualism and xenophobia, viewing everyone as a distinct individual but rejecting an entire group (or indeed anyone outside your group). Likewise, collectivism is not really fitting with xenophile ideology, being open to integrate anyone in your collective - including persons who dont believe in collectives.

Individualist/Xenophobe:
Everyone of your species is a valuable individual. But those aliens are lesser beings, that do not deserve such rights.
Examples: Early Roman Republic (Individualist but Slaveholder), Amreican South, George Washington.

Collectivist/Xenophilia:
Funny enough, I just thought about making this.
"Individualism breeds Xenophbia. That is not acceptable. We will enforce peacefull co-existence of all species"
The pops are so equal, they can totally be enslaved like our pops.

I have to point out that both these Ethos combinations would result in a "Hegemonic Imperialist" AI Personality. Wich is very fitting.

 

[Madzai]

I think the better set of ethos that describe Empire relations to other species will be something like introverts\extroverts or open\closed society. Because xenophobia\xenophilia only partially describe variety of possible inter-species relations. Some species may be closed to other for the whole set of reasons aside from fear or hatred. And wanting to accept anyone in\ meddle with everyone affairs isn't exactly a "xenophilia".

But problem is that those "broader" terms doesn't tell you where slavery come into equation. So PDX stick with xenophobes\xenophiles.

 

[gdj]

I think one key point to not is that this is xenophobia and xenophilia attitudes against other species. I mean, the two are supposed to also be targeted against members of the same species as well, but as far as the game is concerned "xenophilia" and "xenophobia" are about attitudes towards other species of aliens, who can for all intents and purposes be seen as either:
a) just like us, because they are intelligent
or
b) animals, because they aren't us

Xenophobia against humans on Earth, for example, not to delve too deep, despite the number of mental gynmastics bigots must go through, all humans are ultimately still considered "human" even to them, just that some humans are much less liked than others. Won't be the same with aliens, where they CAN be simply regarded as "animals" because they are literally a different species. Obviously, being xenophilic, or at least tolerant, to differences within the species would encourage open mindedness towards intelligent races of other species, it isn't guaranteed.

There is a clear distinction between sentient and non-sentient though. What the game currently does not capture is the question whether an alien species would be discovered and recognized as "alive" at all. If we were to discover an alien fungoid or plantoid species would we even recognize it as a lifeform? Or more extreme, if we were to find energy based or silicate based life, would we recognize it as such? This is question that would have to be answered before we can even start to make a distiction between sentient and non-sentient. I think there are numerous factors that would have to be considered. The perception of time is for example one of these, if it takes 100 years for a species to say "hello" meaningful communication would be quite impossible, making a distinction between "something" and "someone" not an issue in the first place.

So xenophile and xenophobe in this sense would be more a question between the "will to explore and find other forms of life" and "fear of the unknown" (making also either of the two meaningful starting ethoses).