Why are there kingdom-level 'duchies' in the HRE, if you can't switch to them?

[Menkerios]

Creating dejure kingdoms in the HRE is already blocked for the sake of historical accuracy, which makes sense. In the HRE, the emperor ruled dukes (except Bohemia, who was a famous rare exception and EMF accounts for this.)

So... To create a kingdom, you have to declare independence from the HRE first.
At that point, you're already clearly delving into an alternative history.
So why force the player to call that new, free kingdom a "duchy," when they are no longer a vassal of the HRE?

 

[Toa Kraka]

So why force the player to call that new, free kingdom a "duchy," when they are no longer a vassal of the HRE?

You can't change the name_tier of a title in the middle of a campaign, I think. Setting up an awkward workaround would involve far too much trouble.

 

[Menkerios]

It's not about name change, as the kingdom and duchy are both (rather confusingly) named "duchy of ____"
I'm suggesting, why not call the dejure kingdom a "kingdom," since you can't even create it without being independent?

 

[High Elder Ash]

It's not about name change, as the kingdom and duchy are both (rather confusingly) named "duchy of ____"
I'm suggesting, why not call the dejure kingdom a "kingdom," since you can't even create it without being independent?

Probably because you're still under dejure HRE laws.

 

[Menkerios]

I'm not talking about game mechanics, I'm talking about HIP nomenclature.
It just seemed odd that if i ahistorically break away from the HRE, and then ahistorically form a kingdom, it's still called a duchy, even though i don't have a liege above me.

 

[diiter]

I'm not talking about game mechanics, I'm talking about HIP nomenclature.
It just seemed odd that if i ahistorically break away from the HRE, and then ahistorically form a kingdom, it's still called a duchy, even though i don't have a liege above me.

i think these dejure kingdoms are supposed to represent the german stemduchies. Historically, the saxons and the allamans for example where "ruled" by dukes at the time they were incorporated into the frankish regnum, thats why they are still called duchies.
Besides, after establishing high crown authority you can create vassal kingdoms, this could be seen as reestablishing the stem duchies and i think its pretty cool that they are still called dukes after that

 

[comsnt]

Indeed, King Magnus would make more sense.

 

[Ese Khan]

diiter and Toa Kraka are correct.

i think these dejure kingdoms are supposed to represent the german stemduchies.

But

You can't change the name_tier of a title in the middle of a campaign, I think. Setting up an awkward workaround would involve far too much trouble.

 

[Ispil]

But for that, we already have an existing workaround. When you do New World Order in a game, EMF has a mechanic to replace all of the German stemduchy titles with an equivalent that has their rank not altered, so that they are properly "kings".

In that regard, all that would be needed is a decision for any independent stem duke that flips their title to the king variant. Possibly also an event triggered by the creation of those stem duchies in a scenario where the creator is independent to flip it to kingdom immediately.

 

[comsnt]

Or it could work like the anglo-saxon petty kings. The name can change depending if the title holder is independent or not.

 

[Ispil]

Or it could work like the anglo-saxon petty kings. The name can change depending if the title holder is independent or not.

Yeah, but that'd apply strictly at a cultural level, and in every instance of a vassal king of that culture.

 

[Thure]

Or it could work like the anglo-saxon petty kings. The name can change depending if the title holder is independent or not.

But it has nothing to do with independence. Saxony and Bavaria were duchies even BEFORE they were part of the (Holy) Roman Empire. They never called themself kings even while they were independent.
It's similiar to Lithuania. A Kingdom of Lithuania wouldn't make much sense (it existed only for a very short time historically).

 

[Garbon]

But it has nothing to do with independence. Saxony and Bavaria were duchies even BEFORE they were part of the (Holy) Roman Empire. They never called themself kings even while they were independent.

When was that the case for Bavaria (in the early CK2/earlier period)? From my understanding their duchy status came from being notionally under the rule of the Franks (though the strength of Frankish control waxed and waned).