Why are there 5 Phases? Should there be a 6th?

[Amechwarrior]

Im not disagreeing that juggernaut isnt useful against heavies and below. What are you going to do with it in a lategame mission vs all Assaults? This is the only problem with it. Every other skill has a potential use in that scenario. Some may be more useful than others. This one skill though seems to be poorly optimized . Considering you only get 3 skills who thinks choosing one you cant even remotely use cs an all assault lance is a good idea?

If 5 Skull missions are pure 100% assault class units one of them is likely to be a Master Tactician. We haven't seen this level of difficulty yet, but at that assumed level of 100% assault even breach starts to become a liability unless you have one AC/20 on everything.

 

[Bodha]

If 5 Skull missions are pure 100% assault class units one of them is likely to be a Master Tactician. We haven't seen this level of difficulty yet, but at that assumed level of 100% assault even breach starts to become a liability unless you have one AC/20 on everything.

Good points. I wonder if master tactician will be common? As for breach shot, to have it you must have multishot. A lot of assault mechs have huge space, but limited hard point issues. I suspect those mechs wont have trouble finding a use for breach shot more often.

Also Im drawing a blankon the name, but there is morale skill that provides +1 init in addition to other things if im not mistaken. I suppose one could argue juggermaut can counter that.

 

[Jade_Rook]

A side question for those in the know: why did they count down for the phases? Is it phase 5, with 4 more phases to go? Why not phase one, ultra lights, phase 2 light mechs, etc up to the last phase, phase 5?

I was confused by that too, but I think one of the devs described it as the amount of options a mech still has, how many initiative phases they could choose to act in. An assault mech can only act in the last phase (assuming no specials), so it has initiative 1. A light mech can pick between 4 different passes to act in, so it has initiative 4.

 

[Nichino]

I haven't been watching the campaign streams (to avoid spoilers), but when we debated this awhile ago I was also curious how this would play out for vehicles. Vehicles were suppose to act in a phase below their weight. So a Light weight vehicle is slotted in the same initiative phase as Medium mechs... But where does an Assault weight vehicle drop to? Nowhere; it would have to go with the Assault mechs.

Or did they change their mind and vehicles activate in the same weight class as the mechs?

 

[Bugnr01]

Two days to go, so as you assumed right it looks like its not going to change for release.

• Does anyone have a dev statment by the hand why they went with 5 phases,( not 4 or 6)?
• How is this handelt in the TT Game?

 

[stjobe]

Does anyone have a dev statment by the hand why they went with 5 phases,( not 4 or 6)?

There was a huge (1,200+ posts, 72 dev replies) thread on it on the old forums, you might find your answer there.

IIRC one of the main points of the I-go-You-go turn order was to make light(er) 'Mech more viable by giving them more tactical flexibility than their more armed and armoured heavy brethren.

How is this handelt in the TT Game?

It isn't. TT has a wholly different turn order system (and also doesn't have the Juggernaut skill):

(Total Warfare, p.37)

Within each of those phases, players strictly alternate (I-go-You-go), but resolution of each phase is simultaneous (We-go). HBS actually implemented that and tested it internally and decided it was not as much fun as the full I-go-You-go system that we have today. In the thread linked above Jordan states that they tried no fewer than seven different implementations of turn order before settling on the one we see today (or on Tuesday as the case might be).

 

[Alarantalara]

There was a huge (1,200+ posts, 72 dev replies) thread on it on the old forums, you might find your answer there.

Looks like the answer is this:
"Speed still matters for how far you can move and how much of a defensive bonus you get for having moved further. But 'speed' and 'flexibility' are different beasts, and I think it's a reasonable tradeoff to have a simple breakdown by weight class in exchange for outliers like the UrbanMech and the Charger. I want to keep the initiative phases as simple as possible. This is also my general answer to 'what else can contribute to your initiative?' -- I'd like to keep that down to just one thing: high piloting skill can give you a +1." (HBS_thratchen)

In other words, they originally designed it with one positive modifier requiring 5 phases, which was still the case in the beta. Both abilities that apply negative modifiers are very new, so I assume that the 2-year-old decision may have not been changed due to risk (or just overlooked).

 

[nimdabew]

I was confused by that too, but I think one of the devs described it as the amount of options a mech still has, how many initiative phases they could choose to act in. An assault mech can only act in the last phase (assuming no specials), so it has initiative 1. A light mech can pick between 4 different passes to act in, so it has initiative 4.

Yeah I guess. I would have done it opposite, phase 1 mechs, phase 2, etc. We don't do the coin toss in the 5th quarter and kickoff in the 4th after all.

 

[Bugnr01]

Yeah, but in Champinships we go from the round of sixteen to the quarterfinal to semifinal and last the final. Counting down the phases may be strange for some people (me too at the beginning) but stoped bodering me quite quickly.

In other words, they originally designed it with one positive modifier requiring 5 phases, which was still the case in the beta. Both abilities that apply negative modifiers are very new, so I assume that the 2-year-old decision may have not been changed due to risk (or just overlooked).

Makes sense, im just sad they dont went the extra mile and introduced a 6th phase after all. I fear Im going to miss it.

 

[nimdabew]

The first round of the bracket is the first round of the tournament though. Just saying. I get and understand the way they do things, but sometimes I think the person in charge of the number games is a dyslexic Canadian or something. Them and their weird bacon...

 

[NullVoid]

Coming from a tabletop RPG background, the fact that higher initiative numbers get to act first seems pretty natural to me. I can see how counting up could be a thing, but it never even occurred to me the possibility until I read this thread...

 

[Wolf0503]

Or how about when you push an Assault Mech back a phase?

 

[Pointyearedgit]

Or how about when you push an Assault Mech back a phase?

An assault mech will never lose their turn from initiative AFAIK. Their initiative can be boosted by the morale ability “vigilance” and pilot skill “master tactician”. Called shot, knockdowns, and juggernaut can all reduce it, but not below phase 1.

It’s worth pointing out that “Called shot” is also “useless” in the same way as juggernaut, but it isn’t taking the spot of ace pilot or master tactician, which I suspect will just be better in the late game. We shall see upon release, I’ll be testing them all .

 

[Whiskiz]

People saying "initiative phase was made well before juggernaught" um, did you not see the part where he mentioned it also effects assaults not being knocked back a phase, when they are knocked down also?

Did they make the whole initiative setup before knockdowns were a thing, too?

Smh.

 

[KnightCole]

Wut? You knock an assault down and you cant take advantage of any called shots on it? Why not? Its on it's ass, unable to move until it's next turn 5...

 

[Jade_Rook]

Wut? You knock an assault down and you cant take advantage of any called shots on it? Why not? Its on it's ass, unable to move until it's next turn 5...

Assault mechs are still subject to called shots when knocked down. It is just that knockdown doesn't cause them to be knocked back an initiative phase because there isn't a lower initiative to be knocked into.

 

[Pointyearedgit]

Assault mechs are still subject to called shots when knocked down. It is just that knockdown doesn't cause them to be knocked back an initiative phase because there isn't a lower initiative to be knocked into.

And frequently they will not have moved yet that turn, so you will need to manage your reserving if you want to pull out multiple called shots unlike, say, a medium moving phase 3 and then getting pummeled all the way to the next phase 1.

 

[KnightCole]

Assault mechs are still subject to called shots when knocked down. It is just that knockdown doesn't cause them to be knocked back an initiative phase because there isn't a lower initiative to be knocked into.

Well, hell, they are already on thier asses the entire next turn arent they? They are already in the back of the line, IDK how much further you could knock them back. You cant get any further back in the line then the back of the line....

I mean, you Master Tac your Assaults, which I intend to do, you then have phase 4 to phase 5. It just seems to me that a 6th phase for assaults to get -1 int would just be double dipping. Literally everything goes before them already....

 

[Bugnr01]

Its more to deversify (or keep the deversity) the tactical options aganst assalts and while playing assalts. And therefor a phase behind the backline makes sense.

Lets say both lances are four heavys. You have a master tactician and knock down a heavy with this mech. Then you get three called shots (one with every of your other mechs).

If both lances are assalts then you get zero called shots and the enemy stands up right away. Same goes for everything else which reduces initiativ of an assat mech.

Additional you have a hard time bypassing them by reserving because you cant reserve out of their phase.

 

[KnightCole]

The -1int doesnt just cross over into the next turn, starting over at 1?