Why are there 5 Phases? Should there be a 6th?

[Bugnr01]

As i understand it you need four phases for the four weightclasses (phases 2, 3, 4 and 5)
Then you have the the phase 1 to give light mechs an option to use the +1 from master tactition (i think vigilance gives you also +1 initiative)
But why is ther no 6th phase? This seem to cause tactics to flaw when useing assalt mechs.

• Juggernaut is useless against assalts because they are allredy in the lowest phase and is not just rendereing a whole skill useless its also taking away its entail tactical option like use your first mech with juggernaut to remove the enemys mech brace while moving him back a pahse which gives each of your 3 other mechs a full alpha oportunity befor the enemy mech can regain braced or move away.

• You are also not able to utilise kockdowns of assalts as much as you can with heavys (konckdown also reduses initiative by 1 if im not wrong here). With heavys aganst heavys a knockdown ensures you to use all of your remaining heavys before the enemys mech can stand up, aganst assalts he my stand up right away because he remains in the same phase as your assalts.

• Then you have the lighter mechs or mechs with master tactician. In battles up to heavys everything with higher initiative can be reserved back in phase 5 (and beyond the phase of every other mech if they are not reserving), which can enable a double stricke (ore double sensor lock...) if your initiative is higher than the target mech ones. But with assalts a light may be forced to move before an enemy assalt even if the enemy is not reserving (if he has two mechs in phase 5 you have to move befor his last mech).

I personaly have never played the game but from what i have seem till now
i have to say YES there should be a 6th phase!
So again whats the reason to use 5 instead of 6 initiative phases? Are i am overlooking here something?

 

[Bubbasan]

You are not missing anything and it's been something that has been debated since they announced the initiative system so long ago. I have mixed feelings about a 6th phase but suffice it to say that, according to everything I've seen and read on the topic, there are 5 and there will be only 5 phases.

 

[Chaon]

They designed it as 5 phases well before they thought of Juggernaut.

You are right in that there should have been a phase for Assaults to be knocked into by being knocked down or from Juggernaut but they didn't put one in. So we just have to live with it.

Personally I think they rushed Juggernaut and didn't think over how it would deal with Assault mechs.

 

[Xhaleon]

I see your points and they do make sense. How about this: the 6 phases should be Tactical Geniuses, Lights, Mediums, Heavies, Assaults, and Urbanmech.

 

[Cyttorak001]

I'm going to guess that 10 days before release isn't enough time to change fundamental game mechanics. Looks like you'll have to wait for BattleTech 2, so sorry!

 

[Rabid]

I have half a suspicion that they intentionally didn't add a 6th phase in order to give Assaults a slight boost vs. knockdowns (whether this is necessary is a different point entirely).

Juggernaut was probably added later and they didn't think about the interaction here. Reworking Juggernaut seems preferable to making a change that could have more significant balance implications.

 

[Bugnr01]

If i remeber it correctly, juggernaut indeed was added later (and i think it fits in nicely with the other skills and gives its own tactical posibilities without looking to be op).
Intentionally buffing assaults sounds weird but is posible.
It just seem strage to me that you are developing and promoting a tactical round based game and then cut down tactical options by not adding an other round. Thats what i dont get!
It could be that they thought a 6th phase is not necessary after adding the 5th one and then decided to stick to the five phases or they indentionally dont made the 6th. I would like to know it and will sooner or later see how it plays out with assalts.

I'm going to guess that 10 days before release isn't enough time to change fundamental game mechanics. Looks like you'll have to wait for BattleTech 2, so sorry!

Unfotunately, you may be right that its too late for release and i think thats also nothing we will be able to mod in.

It could (but dont have to) be easy for the devs to add another phase. Just putting another phase in front of the first one and give each mech +1 initiative which then can be burned away with juggernaut and knockdowns for assaults too.

I just refuse to give up the hope this game will be everything i want from it, and this "missing" phase just makes me nuts at the moment becasue i dont understand it and fear a negative impact on the gameplay. Maybe i just need to get game and play it to be more relaxed.

 

[Jade_Rook]

Personally, I would rather see something like an accuracy debuff if a unit is at the end of the initiative and would be knocked down another step (either through being actually knocked down or the Juggernaut ability). I would have to see how it all interacts to determine if Juggernaut is actually ineffective against assaults, if that aspect comes up much, and if HBS has done anything about it.

I like that assaults are the last phase. The entire point is that they don't have any other options tactically. Creating a Phase 0 which only gets used if an assault mech gets Juggernaut'd (we need a verb for that) or knocked down would be a special case and take additional programming. It is also an extra bit of complexity in the UI for something which may not come up often.

 

[Pointyearedgit]

It is a double edged sword for assaults. On the one hand they get to stay in that initiative phase even if knocked down, on the other hand they can’t gang up on the assault you just knocked down in the same way.

So jug doesn’t work on phase 1 assaults, it still has great applications in the initiative game for the many non-phase 1 mecs you will encounter or if the AI is allowed to use vigilance as this can put assaults into phase 4 or master tac assaults with the mediums in phase 3. Indeed, your atlas may get the drop on that kintaro

 

[Catapult]

Juggernaut is just a skill. I'm okay with it and its limitations, because most skills seem situational to me. Otherwise we could start to argue that everyone gets free weapons because Multitarget would also be "useless" if a Mech only has one weapon...
IMHO the basic combat elements like phases should not be changed for this release.

 

[Bodha]

Juggernaut is just a skill. I'm okay with it and its limitations, because most skills seem situational to me. Otherwise we could start to argue that everyone gets free weapons because Multitarget would also be "useless" if a Mech only has one weapon...
IMHO the basic combat elements like phases should not be changed for this release.

The problem though is if you commit to juggernaut you are basically setting yourself up for a handicap durkng the late game. I dont like that style of gameplay so no big deal for me, but I do see the issues people are raising about it. Best case scenario is they redo the juggernaut skill and replace it with something nice for those who want to go hard down the guts line.

Personally I would love to see it be redone as a melee skill that has a tactical impact on assaults. I dont care too much about the details, but I do think it should be like every other skill and be possibly useful against any type of mech.

 

[Amechwarrior]

The problem though is if you commit to juggernaut you are basically setting yourself up for a handicap durkng the late game. I dont like that style of gameplay so no big deal for me, but I do see the issues people are raising about it. Best case scenario is they redo the juggernaut skill and replace it with something nice for those who want to go hard down the guts line.

Personally I would love to see it be redone as a melee skill that has a tactical impact on assaults. I dont care too much about the details, but I do think it should be like every other skill and be possibly useful against any type of mech.

Think about how it can be used in the late game and you can find a great use for it vs. Heavies and below.

Late game assumptions:
You will likely have 1 or more Assault 'Mechs
OpFor will also be heavy, but not 100% Assault 'Mechs

If you Juggernaut a Heavy before its move, and the AI has at least one more unit to move in Phase 2, one of your Assaults will get to fire before that Heavy can move to regain Bulwark or Evasion. If you also KD, this gives that assault a free called shot, and works all the way down to Medium units, as they would drop 2 Phases. Letting one Assault fire on a Heavy before it can regain buffs is going to save you money. If you can KD it, its shots are worse and even if not you get to hit them without damage mitigation, which will be huge in the late game with slower and better armored units.

 

[Bugnr01]

Juggernaut is just a skill. I'm okay with it and its limitations, because most skills seem situational to me. Otherwise we could start to argue that everyone gets free weapons because Multitarget would also be "useless" if a Mech only has one weapon...
IMHO the basic combat elements like phases should not be changed for this release.

Thats a very weak argument. You are allways able to use multible weapons on a mech if you want. If not its your decision. The same goes for breaching shot, use all your weapons for half damage or the most powerfull for full damage. Dont heaving a 6th phase renders the juggernaugt skill useless against certain enemys and you cant do anything about it.

But, and thats where i see the bigger problem, its taking away tactical options against assaults you are able to pull of against heavys and renders it more into a blunt firepower duell because you have less options to play around it which i dont thought was the goal of the game.

I maybe able to mod it in lategame if i should stoping to use light mechs (and use meds to assaults) i may be able to just add 1 initiative to every mech class to gain the "6th phase" by removing the 1st one (rendering master tactitian for lights useless).

 

[Amechwarrior]

Thats a very weak argument. You are allways able to use multible weapons on a mech if you want. If not its your decision. The same goes for breaching shot, use all your weapons for half damage or the most powerfull for full damage. Dont heaving a 6th phase renders the juggernaugt skill useless against certain enemys and you cant do anything about it.

But, and thats where i see the bigger problem, its taking away tactical options against assaults you are able to pull of against heavys and renders it more into a blunt firepower duell because you have less options to play around it which i dont thought was the goal of the game.

I maybe able to mod it in lategame if i should stoping to use light mechs (and use meds to assaults) i may be able to just add 1 initiative to every mech class to gain the "6th phase" by removing the 1st one (rendering master tactitian for lights useless).

Breaching shot is totally useless against targets in the open. I don't see people complaining about how it's useless then. The initiative system already greatly disadvantages Assaults and not having a 6th phase is the only perk they gain from it. Assaults have other weakness to exploit and not every ability needs to be useful against every possible situation.

 

[Jaidenhaze]

Breaching shot is totally useless against targets in the open. I don't see people complaining about how it's useless then. The initiative system already greatly disadvantages Assaults and not having a 6th phase is the only perk they gain from it. Assaults have other weakness to exploit and not every ability needs to be useful against every possible situation.

Well, right now Breaching Shot is fairly weak. Yes it grants a single weapon a nice punch but you cant use Multi Shot or anything else with it. Compare it with other Level 2 skills. Master Tactician is very good since it gives you a way to counter Stability Damage and +1 Init is so strong in a game where you can focus one specific enemy. Juggernaut is great and can change how you play a confrontation, same as Ace Pilot, which in my opinion is one of the strongest skill you could get, if you are in a Light (PVP more then campaign since you are not limited on tonnage there).

They all have upsides, while Breaching Shot grants you at max 50 damage, if you are using an AC20. And while this is fairly nice, it doesnt give you a guaranteed hit. The hit chance of an AC20 is not very high, especially if you are Refiring. So you have a skill that can do nothing, while the other are at least always active.

Another thing with Breaching Shot. Melee Attacks remove Guarded, while Breaching Shot just ignores it. While that may be fine, i seems very weak if you compare the ability to remove. I dont think we should necessarily add the "remove" function to Breaching Shot, but attacking with all weapons would be "fine". Depending on the Loadout, it would for example mean that you gain XX extra damage if BS could be usable with more weapons:

Lets take a optimal case scenario: An Atlas with AC20, 2 SRM6 and 4 ML, which is a fairly brawl heavy loadout which, with 28 Heat Sinks, is a LOT of damage while running only at -11 Heat per round.
https://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=16&l=74080b66b4c35bb2a675f0974ba46a60559e002b

This Atlas is just shy of 300 Damage (298). 100 AC20, 100 MLs and 2 times 48 for the SRMs.

A Breaching Shot should do 100 damage. Thats a plus of 50 damage, IF you only use the AC20.
If you attack with all weapons despite a guarded or covered target, you would do half damage (149), which is 49 more then the AC20 hit. I dont know if Cover and Guarded stacks for 75% damage reduction, so ill leave that aside.

If we have a open field (only guarded), you do less damage with a Breaching Shot then with an Alpha Strike. This is - at least in my book, not powerful "enough".

Breaching Shot has to remove Guarded and Cover until the end of the round - OR - the better solution - work just like every other skill in the game (Multishot, Precision Strike, Called Shot) and use all weapons which you can en- or disable.

 

[Bubbasan]

Breaching Shot stacks with Multi Shot as long as each shot of the multi uses only one weapon. Putting a pilot with BS in an Awesome is ...... awesome.

 

[Cepheus]

I would think it would be much more likely they change juggernaut than add a 6th phase at this point if they do anything at all.

 

[nimdabew]

A side question for those in the know: why did they count down for the phases? Is it phase 5, with 4 more phases to go? Why not phase one, ultra lights, phase 2 light mechs, etc up to the last phase, phase 5?

 

[Bodha]

Think about how it can be used in the late game and you can find a great use for it vs. Heavies and below.

Late game assumptions:
You will likely have 1 or more Assault 'Mechs
OpFor will also be heavy, but not 100% Assault 'Mechs

If you Juggernaut a Heavy before its move, and the AI has at least one more unit to move in Phase 2, one of your Assaults will get to fire before that Heavy can move to regain Bulwark or Evasion. If you also KD, this gives that assault a free called shot, and works all the way down to Medium units, as they would drop 2 Phases. Letting one Assault fire on a Heavy before it can regain buffs is going to save you money. If you can KD it, its shots are worse and even if not you get to hit them without damage mitigation, which will be huge in the late game with slower and better armored units.

Im not disagreeing that juggernaut isnt useful against heavies and below. What are you going to do with it in a lategame mission vs all Assaults? This is the only problem with it. Every other skill has a potential use in that scenario. Some may be more useful than others. This one skill though seems to be poorly optimized . Considering you only get 3 skills who thinks choosing one you cant even remotely use cs an all assault lance is a good idea?

 

[Bugnr01]

A side question for those in the know: why did they count down for the phases? Is it phase 5, with 4 more phases to go? Why not phase one, ultra lights, phase 2 light mechs, etc up to the last phase, phase 5?

If i got i correctly, they are not actually counting the phase itself and rather the initiative the mechs have in this phase. So the first one is 5 because there are the mechs with an initiative of five going (light mechs with master tactician pilot for example, 4 for the ligt mech and 1 for the skill) down to phase one for evereything with just one initiative.

I may be corrected if i got it wrong.