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Battlex

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Exactly. They would've been in trouble if they expanded father than Bohemia or Rome, since their army would not have been effective anymore.
Ottomans constantly had pretenders rising in Anatolia or even their capital and were bad at waging war during winter in central europe. So what do you think of a small soft-capped unrest increase?
They have events for members of harem seizing throne prematurely, as well as on monarch succession if a province was ruled by a royal governor then he can start his revolt now. It fires once you have a certain amount of provinces, but I think it could be alot better, as even pre varna you had brothers compete together. Harem events could also be made universal to Muslims, with a decision to enact primogeniture, would make northern Indians be less static, especially if they can rebel and make auto alalinces like Dutch revokt
 

Battlex

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Exactly. They would've been in trouble if they expanded father than Bohemia or Rome, since their army would not have been effective anymore.
Ottomans constantly had pretenders rising in Anatolia or even their capital and were bad at waging war during winter in central europe. So what do you think of a small soft-capped unrest increase?
They have events for members of harem seizing throne prematurely, as well as on monarch succession if a province was ruled by a royal governor then he can start his revolt now. It fires once you have a certain amount of provinces, but I think it could be alot better, as even pre varna you had brothers compete together. Harem events could also be made universal to Muslims, with a decision to enact primogeniture, would make northern Indians be less static, especially if they can rebel and make auto alalinces like Dutch revokt
 

Travis_Bickle

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I honestly don't think there's much of a historical justification for their units being so strong to be honest.

They almost gave up on Constantinople in 1453 and the siege was so costly for them it set them back a few years in expansion. In EU4 they just beat up Byzantium and move on to the next target. In fact, historically sieges were a huge weak point for the Ottomans. Other than a couple of victories against the Mamluks and Poland, the Ottomans seemingly beat up on much, much weaker targets whereas their 2 pips extra pre-tech 19 make them a super army in EU4.
 
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I honestly don't think there's much of a historical justification for their units being so strong to be honest.

They almost gave up on Constantinople in 1453 and the siege was so costly for them it set them back a few years in expansion. In EU4 they just beat up Byzantium and move on to the next target. In fact, historically sieges were a huge weak point for the Ottomans. Other than a couple of victories against the Mamluks and Poland, the Ottomans seemingly beat up on much, much weaker targets whereas their 2 pips extra pre-tech 19 make them a super army in EU4.
Source on them almost giving up? The mythos is very much on mehmed wanting to conquer both Romes and proving himself the greatest. Hungary beat them back several times until ottos also had the wealth of Egypt & Syria.

The extra pips helps push them in their conquests, like how many tags have +tolerance of heathens or - unrest so they don't have issues with stability in their traditional borders, but this also means elsewhere they can conquer more easily

The manpower change is kinda nice and Ottos rarely expands that quick nowadays, but more aggressive AI would make you want to not put all troops on one front, especially if you can't guarantee naval supremacy and so free use of transport shops. If Bohemia would be more passive/fall into PU more then Hungary would be alot more stable and overcome Ottos, but due to strength, doesn't
 
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I honestly don't think there's much of a historical justification for their units being so strong to be honest.

They almost gave up on Constantinople in 1453 and the siege was so costly for them it set them back a few years in expansion. In EU4 they just beat up Byzantium and move on to the next target. In fact, historically sieges were a huge weak point for the Ottomans. Other than a couple of victories against the Mamluks and Poland, the Ottomans seemingly beat up on much, much weaker targets whereas their 2 pips extra pre-tech 19 make them a super army in EU4.
Really love the bullshit you're spinning, quite laughable to be honest.

The ottomans for their part had sieged Constantinople for the 5th time (by 1453) and was still an ambition since the end of the 1300s. In fact they could have taken Constantinople way before 1453, except all those previous times the Ottomans had to constantly deal with something else pestering them such as:

The Crusade of Varna
The Timur expansion
The Ottoman civil war
The succession rebellion of Kucuk Mustafa

So yea, not sure where you got the idea that the Ottomans had almost gave up...
 
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Really love the bullshit you're spinning, quite laughable to be honest.

The ottomans for their part had sieged Constantinople for the 5th time (by 1453) and was still an ambition since the end of the 1300s. In fact they could have taken Constantinople way before 1453, except all those previous times the Ottomans had to constantly deal with something else pestering them such as:

The Crusade of Varna
The Timur expansion
The Ottoman civil war
The succession rebellion of Kucuk Mustafa

So yea, not sure where you got the idea that the Ottomans had almost gave up...
The Ottos had seiged byz before but it does have to be differentiated wars of conquest vs wars for political settlements. But yeh deffo an aim of mehmed and others
 

Jomini

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The ottomans for their part had sieged Constantinople for the 5th time (by 1453) and was still an ambition since the end of the 1300s. In fact they could have taken Constantinople way before 1453, except all those previous times the Ottomans had to constantly deal with something else pestering them such as:

The Crusade of Varna
The Timur expansion
The Ottoman civil war
The succession rebellion of Kucuk Mustafa

So yea, not sure where you got the idea that the Ottomans had almost gave up...
Most likely it was from Candarli Halil Pasha who proposed that the Ottomans do precisely that about a week before the Fall. After all, the walls still stood, all of the sieging tunnels had been successfully countermined by the defenders, losses were mounting, and the longer the army camped in one spot the harder it was to feed with greater danger of disease outbreak.

Frankly I would not be surprised if Mehmed viewed his situation as tenuous, requiring either assault or lifting. He risked serious incursions into other territories and losing the army to disease in densely packed camps is not all that much better than taking the mass casualties storming the walls.

I mean seriously the Ottomans sent eight years in front of the walls only two generations prior. And the time in between those two almost cost the Sultan the throne as he could only overcome the rebellion cheaply by inducing Ilyas to turn on the rebels.

What exactly the Ottoman army was enduring is lost to history, but we do know that one of the most powerful men in the army advocated for retreat from the siege and that shortly thereafter the Sultan order a very costly frontal assault to press victory through sheer force of numbers. In basically all other cases, that has meant that the siege was far from stable and had degenerated into an all-or-nothing stalemate. Fifth time may be the charm, but it does provide a very good track record that the siege was not easy and that having the army invested in a siege against the best fortified city in the world had had very serious real world costs.
 
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Most likely it was from Candarli Halil Pasha who proposed that the Ottomans do precisely that about a week before the Fall. After all, the walls still stood, all of the sieging tunnels had been successfully countermined by the defenders, losses were mounting, and the longer the army camped in one spot the harder it was to feed with greater danger of disease outbreak.

Frankly I would not be surprised if Mehmed viewed his situation as tenuous, requiring either assault or lifting. He risked serious incursions into other territories and losing the army to disease in densely packed camps is not all that much better than taking the mass casualties storming the walls.

I mean seriously the Ottomans sent eight years in front of the walls only two generations prior. And the time in between those two almost cost the Sultan the throne as he could only overcome the rebellion cheaply by inducing Ilyas to turn on the rebels.

What exactly the Ottoman army was enduring is lost to history, but we do know that one of the most powerful men in the army advocated for retreat from the siege and that shortly thereafter the Sultan order a very costly frontal assault to press victory through sheer force of numbers. In basically all other cases, that has meant that the siege was far from stable and had degenerated into an all-or-nothing stalemate. Fifth time may be the charm, but it does provide a very good track record that the siege was not easy and that having the army invested in a siege against the best fortified city in the world had had very serious real world costs.
It may have had some of the most impressive fortifications, but the small garrison meant that they would not be sufficiently manned. The sieges beforehand were not always failed conquests but application of political pressure to get the byz to be loyal tribute payers, I haven't checked recently but IIRC not all of the previous sieges had the dardanelles blocked off like Mehmed was able to
 

Jomini

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It may have had some of the most impressive fortifications, but the small garrison meant that they would not be sufficiently manned. The sieges beforehand were not always failed conquests but application of political pressure to get the byz to be loyal tribute payers, I haven't checked recently but IIRC not all of the previous sieges had the dardanelles blocked off like Mehmed was able to
Ehh Malta, Belgrade, Rhodes, and Corfu all held off comparable Ottoman armies for longer with smaller garrisons and less impressive fortifications. And the defenders force multipliers are not to be underestimated. At Koseg you had under a thousand troops, with no cannons, repulsing 19 separate assaults over four weeks from an Ottoman army of around 100,000; after which the Turks withdrew because keeping your army out in enemy the border lands in front a fort in denuded country was a great way to lose it.

In 1391 and 1394 the Ottomans had tried to blockade at sea but the Christians rallied sufficient fleets to overcome the blockades. In 1411 and 1422 the Ottomans were less well prepared for naval blockade. 1453 was certainly the best match up of technology, manpower, and seapower that the Ottomans had ever had. But would have only taken one bad plague outbreak to break the siege. Or an invasion by the Hungarians. Or a significant rebellion. Mehmed II was not an idiot, he ordered a frontal assault for a reason rather than waiting for further attrition among the garrison or further breakthroughs with the siege guns. Even then, all accounts are that the assault was a close run thing (with multiple false starts) and highly costly.

The folks on the ground simply did not believe that a protracted siege was good strategy. That means that either they thought the defenders were abjectly weak (which belies the casualties suffered and the weeks of delay when a fleet could have provided relief if it had been sent by the Venetians) or that maintaining the siege was likely to be more costly than an assault.

Saying that the Ottomans could have easily taken the place in 1391, 1394, 1411, or 1422 is getting pretty deep into alt-history. Could they have taken it then? Possibly. But doing so before having artillery (e.g. everything but 1422) was going to be far bloodier than 1453. Taking it in 1422, without having the time and funds to build the fortresses used, is even dicier as you are not going to close off the sea. At least in part, it is not that the Ottomans "just happened" to be wracked by rebellions and invasions while besieging Constantinople, rather it was having the army (and the Sultan) camped in front of the walls was dangerous for the Turks. Rebels choose to make their move during the sieges precisely because they expected the army to be diminished and slow to respond.

EUIV's endless sieges with slow, steady attrition that regularly last many months were not the norm in the EUIV era. Assaults were often undertaken not out of overwhelming strength, but out of risk of the siege becoming too costly for the besiegers.
 
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Think the main thing thats an issue is the Ottomans incursion into the Ukraine because of the Crimea vassal event which then means the Russia Ottoman rivalry starts up way too early for Russia to build up and expand into that area stopping Russia become a serious comptitor. I'd say a mid/late game Russia is much more scary then a mid/late game Ottomans (outside of the current AI debt stuff which Russia seems to suffer more so from).

Russia was historically the one nation that consistently beat the Ottomans over and over and over again in wars between 1700s to the First World War so think the Crimea thing makes sense since France or Spain isnt gonna be the one to break Ottomans and Austria with PU Hungary has a very limited window early game since really Austria stagnates with their province count usually.
 
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Source on them almost giving up? The mythos is very much on mehmed wanting to conquer both Romes and proving himself the greatest. Hungary beat them back several times until ottos also had the wealth of Egypt & Syria.

The extra pips helps push them in their conquests, like how many tags have +tolerance of heathens or - unrest so they don't have issues with stability in their traditional borders, but this also means elsewhere they can conquer more easily

The manpower change is kinda nice and Ottos rarely expands that quick nowadays, but more aggressive AI would make you want to not put all troops on one front, especially if you can't guarantee naval supremacy and so free use of transport shops. If Bohemia would be more passive/fall into PU more then Hungary would be alot more stable and overcome Ottos, but due to strength, doesn't
There's a show on Netflix about the Ottomans and the siege of Constantinople that I believe was trying to be be historically accurate that's pretty good. I forget the name of it though. The Ottos had to be pretty clever to win the siege, in one case, they dismantled their ships and drug them across a short stretch of land and reassembled them in this body of water past a sea gate in secret. I think the Byzantines dismissed it as impossible or a feint.
 
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The Ottos had to be pretty clever to win the siege, in one case, they dismantled their ships and drug them across a short stretch of land and reassembled them in this body of water past a sea gate in secret. I think the Byzantines dismissed it as impossible or a feint.
I always loved that painting. The context was the Byzantines usually blocked access to the Golden Horn with a large chain stretched across the sea during hostile sieges. So your options would be to run up against it, and potentially lose ships, or to bypass it.

Kusatma_Zonaro.jpg
 
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Siddy00

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There's a show on Netflix about the Ottomans and the siege of Constantinople that I believe was trying to be be historically accurate that's pretty good. I forget the name of it though.
I'm not familiar with the Netflix show, but for those who find the topic interesting and enjoy reading narrative history, I can highly recommend the book "Constantinople: The Last Great Siege" by Roger Crowley (as well as his other books, amongst other things about Venice and Portugal) :)
 

Travis_Bickle

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How are you supposed to defeat the Ottomans, holding territory north of Vienna, allied with Russia? It's basically an impossible god-tier alliance that makes no game, nor historical sense. I honestly don't think Paradox play the game they make sometimes.

Both countries are too large so they'll never fall into debt or war exhaustion and for some reason neither wants each other's land. Russia doesn't care about Crimea seemingly.

The only thing I'm thinking of is no CBing one of their allies, but I believe that either one can still join cause it'll technically be a great powers war I guess.
 
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How are you supposed to defeat the Ottomans, holding territory north of Vienna, allied with Russia? It's basically an impossible god-tier alliance that makes no game, nor historical sense. I honestly don't think Paradox play the game they make sometimes.

Both countries are too large so they'll never fall into debt or war exhaustion and for some reason neither wants each other's land. Russia doesn't care about Crimea seemingly.

The only thing I'm thinking of is no CBing one of their allies, but I believe that either one can still join cause it'll technically be a great powers war I guess.
Get some strong allies yourself, even if they are not strong, they will distract the enemy. While they are attacking your allies, you rush the ally of the one you attacked to peace him out fast.
 
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Travis_Bickle

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Get some strong allies yourself, even if they are not strong, they will distract the enemy. While they are attacking your allies, you rush the ally of the one you attacked to peace him out fast.
Persia is the only one that comes to mind. The Ottomans will storm them and take more land. I don't want them to get even stronger. There's no one else to distract them. I can summon a fair sized army but a lot of my strength comes in my multiple PU subjects, and we know how useless your subjects AI is. The Ottomans killed the Mamluks, Poland-Lithuania and Austria-Hungary. There's no one else to fight them. I could take them alone, but them + Russia's infinite manpower is impossible.

When Russia forms, they should absolutely become historical rivals to the Ottomans:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Russo-Turkish_wars#Conflict_begins_(1568–1827)

This is basically akin to France and England allying each other. But anything to help the Ottomans out even more I guess.
 
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Why are you always acting so fatalistic? Like this is your fate and nothing can help you from it?

If Ottoman is allied with Russia you can do one of either:
1) Attack an ally of the Ottomans. Make Ottoman break their alliance with Russia. Don't take anything else, otherwise the annul treaties will be less long than the peace treaty. Attack ottomans once the truce is up.
2) Attack an ally of Russia. Do the same thing.
It could even be worth it to no cb someone to break that alliance.

It'd be rare if they have no other allies, or not guarantee someone around you.

Otherwise, look at it like a hawk and declare the moment one of either parties would not accept a call to arms due to debt/occupied provinces/cruel ruler.
 
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Travis_Bickle

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Why are you always acting so fatalistic? Like this is your fate and nothing can help you from it?

If Ottoman is allied with Russia you can do one of either:
1) Attack an ally of the Ottomans. Make Ottoman break their alliance with Russia. Don't take anything else, otherwise the annul treaties will be less long than the peace treaty. Attack ottomans once the truce is up.
2) Attack an ally of Russia. Do the same thing.
It could even be worth it to no cb someone to break that alliance.

It'd be rare if they have no other allies, or not guarantee someone around you.

Otherwise, look at it like a hawk and declare the moment one of either parties would not accept a call to arms due to debt/occupied provinces/cruel ruler.
I've seen loads and loads of threads pointing out how ridiculous and OP the Russian-Ottoman alliance is. It's not just me.
 

Rashie

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Why are you always acting so fatalistic? Like this is your fate and nothing can help you from it?

If Ottoman is allied with Russia you can do one of either:
1) Attack an ally of the Ottomans. Make Ottoman break their alliance with Russia. Don't take anything else, otherwise the annul treaties will be less long than the peace treaty. Attack ottomans once the truce is up.
2) Attack an ally of Russia. Do the same thing.
It could even be worth it to no cb someone to break that alliance.

It'd be rare if they have no other allies, or not guarantee someone around you.

Otherwise, look at it like a hawk and declare the moment one of either parties would not accept a call to arms due to debt/occupied provinces/cruel ruler.
Russia allying the Ottomans shouldn't be happening even if there's ways around it and dealing with it as a player. That pairing needs a permanent historical rivals modifier, similar to the one Austria has with the Ottomans.
 
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