Why are the norse continously buffed?

[DeadlyPineCone]

Hi guys, first post here, just wanted to talk about current balancing for Norse. And yes I know CK2 is hardly a balanced game but the current state of Germanic paganism is ridiculously unfair for anyone facing them.

I don't know why this seems to go unnoticed on the forum or is not talked about, but the Norse, specifically tribal Norse are unfairly balanced. Why do they need a defensive attrition penalty making them impossible to counter as a feudal. i know you can build forts but the fact is playing as a vassal (being unable to convert them) near a Germanic pagan is a real headache as AI is inept at recognizing the attrition penalty and throws away his troops leaving you constantly defending him against minor tribes with the ability to raise massive armies for prestige. This is especially evident at earlier start dates when almost 90% of the time Karl loses against Saxons and ends up being destroyed by hosts and pagans alike.When compared to tengri's another offensive based religion the Norse seem to be getting to much favouritism. So i was wondering do you guys think Norse needs re-balancing, at its current state playing near these guys incredibly frustrating and saps any potential fun for the player.

Just wanted to end by noting that CK2 is one of my favorite games and just wanted to give paradox my opinion so constructive conversations would be appreciated .

 

[Gunnarr]

It is all due to one thing: irrational love for anything viking/norse/pagan/non-christian both by developer and by customers.

You are going to have to mod the game to make it follow a more sensible and historical path.

I know when Old Gods first came out the pagans did NOT convert even close to the rate they did historically. I had to mod the game and double a lot of it to even get close to historical rates.

The only justified "pagan" defensive mechanic was in lithuania, which held to paganism the longest of all the primitive religions.

 

[Pomeranian]

This has been a problem for a while. I wish Paradox would focus on adding some flavour to the other pagans rather than obsessing over the Norse all the time.

 

[TL_]

They're very strong in the early game, but as you gain access to holy orders, advanced military organization, and your holdings become upgraded with better buildings and more castles, even the mighty Norse will break.

Funny enough, MO4 appears right around the same time crusading orders start to appear.

 

[Furleppe]

On the other hand were Ragnar's sons nerfed? In my last games they can't even conquest East Anglia or Northumbria... I wish they were more of a threat.

 

[DeadlyPineCone]

While i agree with most of what you said, kinda misses the point that atm pagans are serously powerful. After this patch pretty much any tribal OPM is a threat since they now raise tribal armies. Best bet is too ally someone powerful like the byzantines and strike first but even then at 99% warscore AI just flips religon and then just elect another pagan 10 years later. Maybe some changes are needed for holy wars like no flipping when occupied. As for ragnar and sons most of the time they fail as they use invasion CB and get destroyed by a united isles.

 

[PeTeTe809]

In my experience playing as pagans, yes you are strong on the defense on the offense you have to rely on them tribal armies. In time all these advantages are negated.

Also light cavalry army OP.

 

[Dahoota]

While I strongly agree they have far more flavour than other pagans and this needs fixing, in all seriousness, 2 points:

• Their flavour and strength is nothing compared to the christians that they neighbour closely. Without the attrition penalty they fold quickly. There are faaar more christian lords and they have 5-6 holy orders dominated by heavy infantry and heavy cav.
• Germanic strength wanes over time, they are really strong for that first 100 years after the viking event. Unless they are controlled by a human they inevitably die out or convert as they are scripted to do.

Seriously, try a game with pagan defensive attrition and raiding switched off and see how fast they crumble in either early start. The defensive pagans last longer with their 80% defense bonus effectively doubling their troop strength.

 

[deadhand13]

Keep in mind, their troops are way weaker than yours and they're economy is a complex mix of raiding, raiding and... a little more raiding.

 

[Kumicho]

Actually, the only thing that makes the Norse OP is that the current AI is too dumb to deal with them effectively... Send in a small reconnaissance force, build a fort, then move the rest of your army in to siege/assault the holding. It got WAY easier to deal with them once Forts were introduced, but the AI doesn't really seem to know how to handle it.

That being said, the Norse rarely do much in my games...