Why are the Mamluks alive?

[Alyosha]

PU solution makes no sense, not only is it not available to Muslims but Egypt's situation between 1517 and 1521 is not represented by a PU at all since there wasn't a separate government structure in place. You would have to have annexed Levant, a vassal Hejaz and Egypt with very high autonomy and unrest. In EU4 terms, Ottomans fully annexed and cored Egpyt in 1521 and their control only got stronger towards 1580s.

PU is possible through commands, and a 50 year cool down to annex by decision could be a way to simulate the increasing control the Ottomans get over the area. Fully annex the Levant, spit out a vassal Hejaz (if proper provinces are held) and keep a rump Egypt as a PU until 50 years have passed. At that point the choice is to spend Government Reform Progress to annex and fully core for free or keep the PU and integrate manually or roll the dice on inheriting.

 

[Magnificent Genius]

Every game the ottos ally a Turkish minor or aq quyonlu and essentially hem themselves in both in terms of clay and missions. I'm not sure how to solve it, although the ai should be a lot more willing to dump allies that it has claims on if it can 1v1 them or somesuch. I see too many ai nations hemming themselves in by allying their own expansion targets and sticking with them past the point of reason.

 

[Battlex]

From the gamefiles, see third line:

adopt_mamluk_government = {
        major = yes
        potential = {
            has_reform = iqta
            NOT = { has_country_flag = formed_mamluks }
            was_never_end_game_tag_trigger = yes
            NOT = { tag = MAM }
            NOT = { tag = HLR }
            NOT = { tag = PAP }
            NOT = { tag = TUR }
            NOT = { tag = ARB }
            NOT = { tag = EGY }
            OR = {
                ai = no
                NOT = { exists = MAM }
            }
            any_owned_province = {
                OR = {
                    region = egypt_region
                    region = arabia_region
                    region = mashriq_region
                    region = maghreb_region
                    region = horn_of_africa_region
                }
            }
        }
        provinces_to_highlight = {
            province_id = 361 # Cairo
            OR = {
                NOT = { owned_by = ROOT }
                NOT = { is_core = ROOT }
            }
        }
        allow = {
            NOT = { exists = MAM } #To Show why it might disappear
            owns_core_province = 361
        }
        effect = {
            361 = { # Cairo
                move_capital_effect = yes
            }
            change_tag = MAM
            swap_non_generic_missions = yes
            if = {
                limit = { has_regency = no }
                kill_ruler = yes
            }
            if = {
                limit = { has_heir = yes }
                kill_heir = yes
            }
            MAM = {
                if = {
                    limit = {
                        NOT = {
                            government = monarchy
                        }
                    }
                    change_government_to_monarchy = yes
                }
                set_government_rank = 2
                add_government_reform = mamluk_government
                add_country_modifier = {
                    name = "centralization_modifier"
                    duration = 7300
                }
                if = {
                    limit = {
                        has_custom_ideas = no
                    }
                    country_event = { id = ideagroups.1 } #Swap Ideas
                }
                egypt_region = {
                    limit = {
                        NOT = { is_core = MAM }
                        NOT = { is_claim = MAM }
                    }
                    add_permanent_claim = MAM
                }
                set_country_flag = formed_mamluks
            }
        }
        ai_will_do = {
            factor = 1
            modifier = {
                factor = 0
                adm_tech = 20
            }
        }
    }

So isn't that saying the AI will only form it with iqta government?

Hejaz can reform Mamluks. The decision is called "Adopt Mamluk Government" and requires owning Qahirah (Cairo?) And the Mamluks not existing.

What's hejaz at game start? If you check a tribal federation like najd that'll prove it once and for all

 

[Battlex]

With no other changes, they'd likely have 100% LD due to the +50% from being Historic Rivals stacking on top of the development and army size factors

Poland and teutonic order loses historic rival via event shortly after vassalisation, and the truce duration gives it plenty of time to fire

 

[EarlKonrad]

So isn't that saying the AI will only form it with iqta government?

What's hejaz at game start? If you check a tribal federation like najd that'll prove it once and for all

Sorry, I should have included in my post that Hejaz is Iqta in 1444.

 

[klingonadmiral]

So isn't that saying the AI will only form it with iqta government?

No, the things in potential = {...} are the requirements for the decision to show up.

So for the "Adopt Mamluk Government" to show up, a country has to:

1. Be Iqta government
2. Have not formed the Mamluks before
3. Not be the Mamluks, the Holy Roman Empire, the papal States, the Ottomans, Arabia or Egypt
4. Be either not an AI or the Mamluks not existing
5. Owning at least one province in the Egypt, Arabia, Mashriq, Maghreb or Horn of Africa regions

 

[Battlex]

No, the things in potential = {...} are the requirements for the decision to show up.

So for the "Adopt Mamluk Government" to show up, a country has to:

1. Be Iqta government
2. Have not formed the Mamluks before
3. Not be the Mamluks, the Holy Roman Empire, the papal States, the Ottomans, Arabia or Egypt
4. Be either not an AI or the Mamluks not existing
5. Owning at least one province in the Egypt, Arabia, Mashriq, Maghreb or Horn of Africa regions

Ah thanks

 

[KlinkerFyren]

A warscore reduction bonus for X years or maybe even some kind of permanent warscore cost reduction against Mamluks specifically if possible or some fancy AI tweaks could work.
However a event that allows Ottomans to just outright annex Mamluks outright is dumb. Generally for balance purposes EU4 doesn't do the whole massive conquests of collapsing states like sometimes happened in history. For instance Spain doesn't get insta conquests of the Inca or Aztecs and Qing doesn't get 1k free dev just 'cuz history and shit bro...'

 

[Battlex]

A warscore reduction bonus for X years or maybe even some kind of permanent warscore cost reduction against Mamluks specifically if possible or some fancy AI tweaks could work.
However a event that allows Ottomans to just outright annex Mamluks outright is dumb. Generally for balance purposes EU4 doesn't do the whole massive conquests of collapsing states like sometimes happened in history. For instance Spain doesn't get insta conquests of the Inca or Aztecs and Qing doesn't get 1k free dev just 'cuz history and shit bro...'

Qing does get the western marches for free tho

 

[Cuervo0]

Burgundian inheritance worth around 350 dev and almost always its complete inheritence with 0 autonomy and 0 AE. The land is also more valuable than Mamluk territory since half of it is in the best trade node in the game. There are dozens of PU in missions or events which are basicly the same, Austria and Castile/Spain can easily PU almost all the big guys in Europe other than France. In addition to these Burgundy can take over France's vassal swarm, which is nearly half of the France, after some conquest in the name of usurping French throne and can instantly inherit all of them along with their previous subjects by just falling under PU by an event that always fires if player is aware of the conditions. And there are weird Restoration of Union and Subjugation CBs for all the electors if emperor refuses your entrance to HRE, again pretty easy.

"Its balance breaking" argument doesn't make any sense, there is no balance already. Direct ownership on levant and maybe holy cities and fixed high autonomy for the rest of the territory for x years or a special version of vassalage for this case is pretty innocent compared to rewards of the new mission trees and events.

 

[Aeschyli]

Paradox should rework Ottomans mission tree. Its just boring when you compare the others.

 

[Battlex]

Paradox should rework Ottomans mission tree. Its just boring when you compare the others.

Ottomans use their missions from the old system, they don't have new ones, but using the diet they can get some nice stuff, like subjugating mams once they've conquered Syria

 

[EarlKonrad]

Paradox should rework Ottomans mission tree. Its just boring when you compare the others.

I find it ironic how the Byzantine, who got their mission tree at release just like the Ottomans, have a much more interesting mission tree.

 

[grommile]

I find it ironic how the Byzantine, who got their mission tree at release just like the Ottomans, have a much more interesting mission tree.

Hey, people who can drag Byz out of the dumpster deserve an interesting mission tree.

 

[Hootieleece]

Also Mamelukes have two great cities Alexandria and Cairo that they develop to Constantinople/Istanbul levels which allows them to absorb losses for awhile plus the revanchism mechanic. The warscore system also plays a part, because you can't annex the whole country after 2-3 wars at 100% warscore.

Observations from recent Ottoman game during 1.30.3.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

Also Mamelukes have two great cities Alexandria and Cairo that they develop to Constantinople/Istanbul levels which allows them to absorb losses for awhile plus the revanchism mechanic. The warscore system also plays a part, because you can't annex the whole country after 2-3 wars at 100% warscore.

Observations from recent Ottoman game during 1.30.3.

So, are you too suggesting a Burgundian-like event?

 

[Battlex]

I find it ironic how the Byzantine, who got their mission tree at release just like the Ottomans, have a much more interesting mission tree.

Byz is dlc, so has to be more interesting, same with Muscovy and East slavic getting pretty full missions, still no idea on why hordes got their tree

 

[Hootieleece]

So, are you too suggesting a Burgundian-like event?

Not exactly. I was only commenting on a few reasons I think why the Mamelukes seem to have much better survivability.

As for a Burgundian Inheritance like event...I wouldn't be against it happening or occurring, but It should be something all Moslem nations can trigger. Like Asian Nations can try and Claim the Mandate of Heaven. Allow it to trigger if you own X provinces (many including Alexandria, Cairo, Damascus, Aleppo, and Jerusalem) have an MTTH till it happens and maybe set a date after which it can't happen say 1600.

 

[EarlKonrad]

Byz is dlc, so has to be more interesting, same with Muscovy and East slavic getting pretty full missions, still no idea on why hordes got their tree

When EU4 released they experimented quite a bit with region specific flavour. Purple Phoenix gave you a crap ton of unique missions and some events. I get the idea behind a DLC mission tree being more interesting than a vanilla mission tree, but I'm not sure that's what they were going for at the time. Rather, I think that what the Byz and Ottoman trees show is how in the early days missions were aimed at nudging a country into its historical borders (on in the case of Byz to re-establish their borders). Byz missions are still rather bland but offer quite more variety than the Ottomans.

Now, compare of both of them to the treatment that USA got with the American Dream DLC. They got half a dozen missions and a crap ton of scripted events, many which are hard to trigger accidentally or don't really benefit you much.

 

[Battlex]

When EU4 released they experimented quite a bit with region specific flavour. Purple Phoenix gave you a crap ton of unique missions and some events. I get the idea behind a DLC mission tree being more interesting than a vanilla mission tree, but I'm not sure that's what they were going for at the time. Rather, I think that what the Byz and Ottoman trees show is how in the early days missions were aimed at nudging a country into its historical borders (on in the case of Byz to re-establish their borders). Byz missions are still rather bland but offer quite more variety than the Ottomans.

Now, compare of both of them to the treatment that USA got with the American Dream DLC. They got half a dozen missions and a crap ton of scripted events, many which are hard to trigger accidentally or don't really benefit you much.

Yeah there's some great events that you can see are obviously early in the dev cycle, stuff like "get a fort for 50 ducats" rather than +local defensiveness