Why are the Islamic countries easily defeated after a 100 years or so?

[Templier]

Hi,

On Deus Vult:

I have had a couple of playthroughs on Normal Difficulty of different scenarios starting at either 1054(IIRC), 1187 and the other starting date(s) for some time now. I've played all of them for at least 100 or so years. I've noticed that in all cases the Europeans would either eat up all of North Africa and the Holy Land, banishing most of the Islamic nations to the eastern most edge of the map.

For example, I either get Germany, Sicily or England taking over all of Egypt and the areas around Tunisia. If I play the 1187 scenario, other European countries, especially the Byzantines, just build an empire around the Kingdom of Jerusalem's territory.

Exceptions to all of these are the areas in Spain, where the exact reverse occurs (The Muslims there take over the entire Iberian Peninsula).

Is it just me, or a different result happening to you guys?

 

[unmerged(135995)]

At the beginning of the game the muslim realms are far more advanced than the christian realms and therefore more powerful.

However, after (as you noticed) a 100 years or so the situation is changing, with the christian realms becoming of equal strength or even stronger.

Spain is usually (though not always!) conquered by the muslims before the christian kingdoms there can muster enough strength to withstand them and for the other parts of the muslim world... Well, it usually takes a couple of crusades.

It doesn't always happen like this, though. I have seen an Egyptian 'Ottoman empire' being formed, with Egypt running from Cordoba in the west to Mesopotamia in the east and (with a few exceptions, of course) through the whole of north africa.

 

[unmerged(80455)]

Even in DV, the opposite still often happens to me. I've seen Muslims clear into Tours (the irony) by the 1200's if I start in 1066. It varies more than CK 1.5, but I see it too much to my liking.

The middle east is a different story though, it often does pretty poorly against the crusaders.

 

[TempestDK]

I think one of the reasons that this happens is because of the multitude of Crusades being called all the time. They will eventually wear down the muslim nations, as half of Europe come calling again and again. Once one of the major powers of Europe establishes a foothold in muslim territory they will usually just expand from there (unless they have problems at home). That crushes most of the bigger and more resilient muslim realms, letting them break up into smaller realms that are easily defeated.

If the pope didn't call a crusade every 5 years, I am sure we would see most of the african and middle-eastern realms last longer.

 

[kadvael56]

I also noticed that the first muslim rulers are good and make large realms and after 2 or 3 generations their heirs are bad and the realms are collapsing. Many smaller kingdoms are easy preys for the crusaders.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

There are a few things that give the Moslem realms trouble:

- the kingdom level realms all hold non-territorial titles, i.e. vassals who broke away don't pledge as much to get back under their former sultan's and king's protection since they are not recognized as holding a title belonging to the realm of the sultan or king.

- Christian kings (and dukes) often end up holding demesne provinces in the holy land, which are very very hard to take away for the Muslims. Christians can travel through Muslim land when at war, but Muslims cannot travel through Christian land. Muslim rulers being "busy" at war with the owner of such a province will refrain from DoWing other Christians. This is fairly unrealistic, in real history there was no need to conclude a peace treaty in order to take possession of an infidel's provinces after you stormed his castles and chased out his soldiers.

- North African realms lack depth - two or three provinces off the coast is the furthest you get in Tunesia, Tripolitania, Morocco and most of Algeria. This means the lands are easy to conquer because the defending army has to be rallied from far away lands and will arrive at the combat from different directions. The AI sucks at rallying regiments in order to hit a human player with a concentrated force. Realms with territorial depth (Seljuks, Egypt) are better at this, their armies often arrive all from one direction so they can more or less zerg rush the human or AI enemy, attacking in waves and hitting the same regiments over and over until the break.

- the human player loves to bash the Muslims (I am guily of this, too) It is very easy to stab a Muslim king in the back who has just mobilized all his troops and marched them off to Spain or Sicily, and left his homeland unprotected.

 

[saskganesh]

in one of my first CK games, me and the AI eventually wiped all the muslims (and pagans) off the map.

dissatisfied with this state of being, I now have a house rule that limits me from extensive campaigning in North Africa and the Middle East. Helps a bit to sustain Islam as a power, but the AI has no such gamey compulsions.

I think some event wrangling, to sustain and support weakened Muslims is in order. Grell's Muslim events help a little bit, but don't work that great as the AI disbands bonus troops if not immediatly at war.

 

[unmerged(31020)]

Christians can travel through Muslim land when at war, but Muslims cannot travel through Christian land. Muslim rulers being "busy" at war with the owner of such a province will refrain from DoWing other Christians.

This seems to be the biggest problem for Muslims and Pagans alike. They're often at war with foes they can't reach, so those wars take forever. Having their armies raised all the time eats up all their income, leaving them nothing to develop their provinces, so they're falling behind the Christians more and more over time.

Afaik the rules who can march through religious enemy territory have been changed multiple time in the patches. Maybe Johan could build in a switch in some external file to give players the choice if they want their Muslims and Pagans with arms tied behind their backs or not.
While the notorious Sheikdom of Praha may be historically inaccurate, I'd rather have that than non-Christians having no chance at all.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Hmm

Ideally you would go and manually trigger a forced-peace event for muslims who are stuck in that situation, so they can demob their armies (or fight someone else). Like, typing F12 and then "event 9999 MALE" where 9999 would be an event forcing a peace between muslim Aleppo (MALE) and whoever he is at war with.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

In Deus Vult vanilla, Christians cannot walk trough Muslim lands. At least, I cannot. and that's much annoying since I must declare war upon every single Muslim county to reach Alexandria from Jerusalem before taking the kingdom of Egypt, raising my badboy to unsuspected limits. Should not making war with the Infidels raise your reputation, not lowering it? Badboy should apply to christian kingdoms, and also to Muslim domains, but significantly less.

 

[TempestDK]

In Deus Vult vanilla, Christians cannot walk trough Muslim lands. At least, I cannot. and that's much annoying since I must declare war upon every single Muslim county to reach Alexandria from Jerusalem before taking the kingdom of Egypt, raising my badboy to unsuspected limits. Should not making war with the Infidels raise your reputation, not lowering it? Badboy should apply to christian kingdoms, and also to Muslim domains, but significantly less.

You can install the latest beta-patch (from october) ... there you can walk all over muslims lands once you are at war with one of them.

The act of declaring war on infidels does not raise your BB. Declaring on christians do. To keep BB down, just release your claim to their title in the peace negotiations. Force-vassalizing them gives 0 BB.

Reputation increases even when warring with muslims as you increase your lands, making you a much bigger threat ... the rest of the world won't care if you annex 12 provinces in northern France or northern Africa ... you'll still be a threat and a warmonger.

 

[Kordian]

The act of declaring war on infidels does not raise your BB. Declaring on christians do. To keep BB down, just release your claim to their title in the peace negotiations. Force-vassalizing them gives 0 BB.

Yeah but I don't understand why my lad has to get BB points if he conquests muslim or pagan provinces. It makes no sense!
Being CK a game that allows you to play as a christian lord why other christian dudes should despise me if I conquest arab territories?
DV has rebalanced the gameplay by changing the rules of conquest of pagan/muslim provinces (now you have to demand a province through peace negotiations) but I think this BB malus is really silly.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

Now that I think about it, it seems right that other Christian lords are afraid of you if you get too much power, too much royal demesne. It makes sense.

 

[Valhallas Call]

While the notorious Sheikdom of Praha may be historically inaccurate, I'd rather have that than non-Christians having no chance at all.

This happened in my current game!

 

[vwclaymore]

In my current game (started at Count of Mar and Buchan in Scotland and now Duke of Albany) the King of Scotland went on crusade and was defeated so the Muslims he was fighting invaded Scotland (which was helpful for me to expand my own power base in Scotland since he only took the kings lands and not my own). But that was by sea, so they didn't have to worry about the can't go through Christian lands restriction.