Why are special forces so weak

[gen654]

Hi
Why are special forces such as marines so weak that when you attack with them the men quickly die away? I'm referring to the default marine template. It seems they are somehow weaker than normal infantry
they maybe suitable for small battles but not the big frontiers

 

[LastButterfly]

Considering the special force battalion limit I don't see how they could be suitable for the "big frontiers". Either way, I was under the impression that special forces were just stronger infantry if compared to an equivalent template. The starting marine template is 4 battalions, right ? It sure is weak but it shouldn't be any weaker than a divison of 4 infantry battalions. Maybe I'm wrong...

 

[gen654]

It sure is weak but it shouldn't be any weaker than a divison of 4 infantry battalions. Maybe I'm wrong...

I guess in this game there is strength in numbers but the slightly smaller force (special force) seems to take way too much damage...

 

[Rashie]

Special forces have less HP than regular infantry, that's why they take more damage, which they trade for increased organization instead.

As for the base template, you'll need to adjust that if you want your marines to be more capable.

 

[gen654]

Special forces have less HP than regular infantry, that's why they take more damage, which they trade for increased organization instead.

As for the base template, you'll need to adjust that if you want your marines to be more capable.

Cool I didn't know that (less HP). explains their weakness

I often put tanks to the marine template to create more effective special force

 

[walt526]

But nearly all battles end because of a loss of ORG rather than HP. A 10/0 MAR w/ ART and ENG has 60 ORG (202 HP) compare to 10/0 INF w/ ART and ENG's 52 ORG (252 HP). I'd much rather have that 15% extra ORG than the 25% extra HP.

There's also a tech that will boost Marines' ORG even higher and the Marines also have a faster base recovery rate. There are also some differences in Breakthrough and Defense (i.e., Marines are better attackers, Infantry are better defenders), although these are relatively inconsequential. And of course Marines have their terrain bonuses, which in the right environments offsets their loss of strength due to lower HP.

 

[Razmorg]

Marines and mountaineers are specialists. They get big bonuses in their respective areas. Special forces aren't "elite" forces, they are "special".

So marines are good if you need to fight in swamps, attack across rivers or do combat naval landings.

Mountaineers are good at defending / attacking mountain areas.

I don't think there's a reason to use them over regular divisions unless you envision them taking any part of those special cases.

 

[walt526]

Sure, but even on plains or whatever, Marines will outperform regular infantry because of their ORG advantage. That was the point of my earlier post.

 

[marcelo r. r.]

i had same experience, my endgame marines loss lot of Strength after fight in regular terrain, and im talking about countries like GER or USA with top end equipment 1945+ and CAS support.

well according with guys above said, they seems designed to hold long fight time instead of "break" some fronts.

 

[Voigt]

Marines aren't elite Infantry (regular Infantry can become Veteran and with this elite), but they are specialised Infantry. In regular terrain they are only marginally better than regular infantry, but they are miles better if they are used for the role they are made for (Naval Invasions).

Don't see "Marines" as US Marines which are used in the deserts jusz because they are "elite", but see them specialised batallion trained for one job specifically.

 

[Axe99]

As a side note, if playing as ENG/Britain, if you're going to build special forces, be sure to do the NF and get David Stirling - that +20 per cent attack is not to be sniffed at, and can make a good special forces template very handy.

More broadly, keep in mind that special forces are significantly better with the full tech investment (and moreso if you go with the top than the bottom path) - with bonuses to attack, org and climate acclimatization (so better in hot and cold environments, as they'll acclimatise better).

Other tips are to set the template to "elite", so it gets the best kit (this isn't anything special for special forces, but if you're going to use them as an elite force, then this helps them double-down on this) and being careful not to add too many non-special force frontline battalions, as that'll dilute the terrain bonuses. I usually use support ART and AT (with AA if playing as someone unlikely to have decent air support), and then logistics (good for Marines and Paras) and field hospital (good for reducing experience loss from casualties, as well as the net manpower impact from casualties) - but I tend to go with more support battalions than may be optimal from a min-max angle (I wouldn't know, I'm not a great min-maxxer).

As others have well said, the default special forces templates are fairly small forces, so won't have much luck against a full-sized division - so if you want to use them as normal divisions, be sure to bulk that template up.