Why are Psi warriors considered bad?

[Milten]

Since all armies are just for RP, there is not a single reason to use psi-warriors when you have genes or basic assault ones. It's just more micro with assault armies.

Aren't you contradicting yourself a little? If armies are for RP, then what's the point of minimaxing?

 

[Pyramid_Head]

Less micro. Order several genes and disband 30 assault armies. No difference of what they are composed of, less transport to move is what matters for me.

 

[Princess Stabbity]

I'm a bit disappointed with how irrelevant different types of armies are. Their progression seems to be a line of straight upgrades so there is no strategic incentive to mix different classes into your stack.

In fact I'm pretty sure you can conquer the entire galaxy at any point of the game with like 50 assault armies, no general, no bonuses, and no attachments.

I feel like that aspect of the game would seriously benefit from adding wave mechanics to invasions (on both sides, preferably) as well as assigning some sort of "supply" to different armies that would make it so stronger armies take up more slots, instead of all of them fitting into just one.

Like imagine if a standard assault army only took up 1 army spot, psi armies were 2 or 3 and gene warriors 4. And you could only field saaay 20 slots in a single wave. Your 5 gene warriors would get quickly overwhelmed by lots of smaller armies so you'd have to find balance between involving your hard hitters and fielding enough numbers to spread out enemy damage. Keeps it simple but still adds some much-needed depth to ground combat.

 

[Pyramid_Head]

Harldy any sane player will waste leader slot on a general

 

[GloatingSwine]

I think until the whole ground battle system gets overhauled to be something other than a fancy progress bar it's not really worth worrying about types of armies though...

 

[I am Sovereign]

I would wish some could board ships/spacstations maybe miningstations too.
It would make armies so much more important for offensive aswell as defensive purposes.

And some could play a armies only playthrough as a species which is pretty bad at constructing spaceships but are just pure monsters on the battlefield. (ALIEN Xenomorphs aynone?)

Also it would make the useless military republic ethos worthy to pick...

 

[Solicitius]

Why the Gene Warrior is the master race:

Gene warriors with strong trait and PSI attachment would like a word with you...

Personally, Grey knights are my kind of end game army: both strong and gifted in Psionics.

"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of the daemon, I shall fear nothing. For I am what the daemon fears."

 

[Lady Lacroix]

Also a minor point but gene warriors also don't have the problem of being countered by robotic armies.

 

[MechaThumper]

Also a minor point but gene warriors also don't have the problem of being countered by robotic armies.

No army counters any other army. Here's a table showing in a 1v1 fight, how much damage as a % of your HP the enemy army would do by the time you kill it.

As you can see, if you ignore Garrison and Defense, you roughly come up with a couple of tiers in terms of strength:

Tier 1 - Assault & Slaves - Slaves are much better once you include their significantly cheaper build cost and maintenance. In fact Slaves almost come out on top over everything when you include maintenance and build costs.

Tier 2 - Clones & Robots - Clones are vastly superior once costs are included. Since they cost the same as Assault troops you should replace them if you care to. As pointed out before once costs are in Slaves win out, since while they should perform similarly in terms of maintenance, a Slave army would be 1/2 the mineral build costs. Because of the costs in maintenance and build costs Robots are just bad, almost unarguably the worst army unit.

Tier 3 - Elite Guard, Androids, Psionic, Xenomorphs - That's their order of strength. Psionics will beat out Xenomorphs but that's the exception. Since Xenomorphs cost less in build and maintenance than both Androids and Psionics, there's no reason you should be building those. Psionics will heavily beat out Androids if you look at maintenance but Androids are significantly cheaper to build. Elite Guard are the best you'll have until you get Xenomorphs, course Slave armies are still cheaper to build in terms of minerals...

Tier 4 - Gene Warriors - Exterminate! Exterminate! wait, what? did you expect an Exterminatus? Everyone knows Daleks are the perfect analogue of a living being and the superior race.

Tier 5 - Titanic Beasts - get them when you can and what monster wouldn't use Cthulhu for menial tasks whenever they could?

Of course when picking weaker army units you will always have a higher statistical chance of accidentally losing an army. But lets face it, as you can see Slaves are the Ninjas of Stellaris. Just keep throwing them at the problem until it's fixed.

Overall in a SP game the costs of armies are negligible (a gene warrior costs what? around what a destroyer costs) So even if you are building a 100 of them you can really just build what you want.

 

[GamingHUD]

No army counters any other army.

No, Lady Lacroix is right. Morale damage is one of the strengths of the Psi Warrior, which robots and androids counter because they don't have a morale stat and so always fight at full strength.

Now, in an even fight psi warriors are probably strong enough to beat robots still but not androids.

 

[Hopit]

I see your John-117 and raise you one Garvial Lorken.

OT: I don't think they're necessarily bad but assault armies are sufficient enough for the length of a campaign that you don't really need to bother using other units if you don't feel like it. I generally only switch to Gene Warriors when the option comes up because it often means I don't have to bombard planets first - just take out spaceport & other defenses, then move the fleet on while the Gene Warriors invade.

By the flavor text, the gene warriors are closer to spartans than to adeptus astartes, sadly

 

[MechaThumper]

No, Lady Lacroix is right. Morale damage is one of the strengths of the Psi Warrior, which robots and androids counter because they don't have a morale stat and so always fight at full strength.

Now, in an even fight psi warriors are probably strong enough to beat robots still but not androids.

Robots and Androirds have morale stats. It's 200 for both.

 

[GamingHUD]

Robots and Androirds have morale stats. It's 200 for both.

Because they're bugged right now. They're not supposed to have morale.

 

[MechaThumper]

Because they're bugged right now. They're not supposed to have morale.

That's not the only thing bugged. Commissars don't increase morale and base morale damage is modified by the morale modifier and not by the morale damage modifier in the army file. Though the army attachments work fine with modding morale damage. Also damage modifiers affect morale damage as well, though that may be intentional.

Until it's fixed, and at the very least it doesn't sound like it will be in it's current form as they are looking to change ground combat in some way, I think it's incorrect to say that there are counters when there are not.

 

[CuddlyKitten]

They should change armies entirely.

First of all they should remove transports.

Then they should give ships two new extra slot types, troop attachment (TA) and troops (T). Also add regular slots for things like orbital command centers that give a % based bonus to fleet military strength.
Destroyers get 1 x TA
Cruisers get 1 x T slot, 1 x TA
BBs get 2 x T slot, 1 x TA

Orbital bombardment stays as before when it comes to options but does things a little differently. Your fleet also have different stances for ground assult.

The fleet in its entirety gets a military strenght value.
A planet also has a military strenght value based on population, infrastructure, defensive troops, governor, building types etc.

When a fleet is in orbit and you commence an assult you being to seige the planet. The planet and the fleet rolls in a mechanic very similar to how it works in EU 4. Each month both the fleet and the planet lose military strenght until either the invasion fails or the planet is taken.
Different events during the invasion can effect this and there are different modifiers depending on how far the siege has gone (for example, orbital bombardment phase, establishing a bridgehead, taking territory, consolidating control).
Depending on your stances your fleet does differents ammount of damage but also takes different ammounts of damages. Essentially if you have
a very careful invasion stance you take a long time but can crack hard nuts, if you have all out assult (similar to EU IV) you take massive losses but the invasion goes extremly quickly.
Once the planet is under your control you need 10 % of the planets total defensive strenght in order to maintain controll. If you remove that blockade the planet slowly starts to slip out of your control.

Different types of armies should do different things. Some can't be used for certain types of invasion plans (Xenomporphs can't take it slow for example), some boosts your total army score but are relativly weak (psi).
Moral should exist as a variable but not as before.

Attachments can maintain a blockade if you have enough of them. New attachments can be things like military police which gives no bonus to invasion but a massive bonus to occupation while hunter killer drones does the reverse.
Defensive armies can have guerilla which means that they can never be destroyed (they just go down to 10 % strenght) which makes you not take a more valuble attachment for pure stats but also means the enemy needs a larger blockade once the invasion is done.

I think it would both reduce the ammount of micromanagment, keep ground combat and make more sense in that you need to spread out your fleet once you start winning so perhaps you can't even occupy all the enemy worlds and achive total victory if the opponent is to big.

Edit: both fleet and World military power regenerate without cost overtime but of course being in friendly territory increases it, being in orbit of a friendly planet increases it further and having the right building is an even bigger boost.

 

[GamingHUD]

That's not the only thing bugged. Commissars don't increase morale and base morale damage is modified by the morale modifier and not by the morale damage modifier in the army file. Though the army attachments work fine with modding morale damage. Also damage modifiers affect morale damage as well, though that may be intentional.

Until it's fixed, and at the very least it doesn't sound like it will be in it's current form as they are looking to change ground combat in some way, I think it's incorrect to say that there are counters when there are not.

I don't think it's incorrect when the discussion is largely hypothetical anyway. Especially with the current state of combat, where there's no reason outside of reduced micro to use anything other than assault armies anyway.

 

[Lady Lacroix]

That's not the only thing bugged. Commissars don't increase morale and base morale damage is modified by the morale modifier and not by the morale damage modifier in the army file. Though the army attachments work fine with modding morale damage. Also damage modifiers affect morale damage as well, though that may be intentional.

Until it's fixed, and at the very least it doesn't sound like it will be in it's current form as they are looking to change ground combat in some way, I think it's incorrect to say that there are counters when there are not.

Fair enough, though you cant really blame us for coming to this conclusion when the game explicitly states that it is the case. X_X

 

[Pchang]

I don't think it's incorrect when the discussion is largely hypothetical anyway. Especially with the current state of combat, where there's no reason outside of reduced micro to use anything other than assault armies anyway.

I find build speed to be the most important factor. This is why clone armies become my go to as soon as they become available.

 

[DAKOTA567]

I think gene warriors should definitely be buffed so that they can (almost) singlehandedly win a war against Evangelizing Zealots and defeat an end game crisis. Also they should be able to blow ring worlds

Aye.

I see your John-117 and raise you one Garvial Lorken.

The Chief's suit looks less silly. Thus, he is still more bae.

Gene warriors with strong trait and PSI attachment would like a word with you...

Psionics are ew, technology is betterer. =]

 

[Druesling]

Gene armies are great, i try to give the regiments very martial names.

I call them Wilders, Hackmans or Lockhearts...