Why are not ugro-fins nomads?

[VladMar]

Hi there felow players, have you ever asked, why are not ugro-fins nomads, like Khanty or Neenets?

In game, they have tribal government, but historicly they were nomads, were they not? i mean they, like steppe nomads live in harsh enviroment which basicly forces peoplr living there to move. Like nomads they herd animals, not horses but deers.

Why do you think, they were made seditary-tribal, maybe because gameplay perspective and if yes which one?

Gameplay question: How to play those northen tribals? From my knowledge, raiding is a loss.

+ Would be correct if I mod them to be nomads and how?

 

[Warial]

Nomads in game are meant to represent only Steppe Nomads. All mechanics are tailored towards Turkic and Mongolic states. Ugro-Finns simply don't fit those mechanics.

 

[Narvait]

Nomads in game are meant to represent only Steppe Nomads. All mechanics are tailored towards Turkic and Mongolic states. Ugro-Finns simply don't fit those mechanics.

Forest or tundra zones peoples dont fit.
Magyars (Ugro-Finns of steppe) fit quite well.

 

[Narvait]

What I would like however is that if you are tribal near nomads and own enough nomadic land (steppe) then you should be able to join them as minor clan or start your own clan.

 

[aono]

In game, they have tribal government, but historicly they were nomads, were they not? i mean they, like steppe nomads live in harsh enviroment which basicly forces peoplr living there to move. Like nomads they herd animals, not horses but deers.

It's complicated.
Really they were semisedentary - there were some tribal centers and a lot of small settlements with people came in and out. Problem is it's not Great Steppe, where you can live on the move - if you want to live in Finland or forest Perm, you need crafts (at least metals - local or imports), you need shelters, and you need food reserves. So it's something like season work in wilderness and living in stable settlements later.
Also some tribes, such as jäämit, just lived by robbing neighbourghoods.

Magyars (Ugro-Finns of steppe) fit quite well.

...and they are nomads in game, aren't they?

 

[Narvait]

...and they are nomads in game, aren't they?

That is my point. There is nothing in Finno-ugric culture that would forbid them become nomads when in steppe.

 

[n00bypl4y3r]

Let me go and look back at the old dev diaries, but I recall a picture showing some of the Finno-Ugric steppe tribes as empires for Horse Lords. It made me excited to play as a Perm steppe empire, but that never happened.

edit: Well it's not in any of the dev diaries. I thought for sure it was, I can't remember what I was thinking then.

 

[Warial]

That is my point. There is nothing in Finno-ugric culture that would forbid them become nomads when in steppe.

Were there any other Finno-Ugric peoples living in the steppe? AFAIK Magyars were an exception, but my knowledge of the region is fragmentary, so I can be wrong.

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

Nomads in game are meant to represent only Steppe Nomads. All mechanics are tailored towards Turkic and Mongolic states. Ugro-Finns simply don't fit those mechanics.

Magyars, Alans, and the Khitans all have nomadic realms as well. None of them are Turks or Mongols.

 

[aono]

That is my point. There is nothing in Finno-ugric culture that would forbid them become nomads when in steppe.

Problem is we can't even really name that as a "culture". They had common enough languages, some... close myths... and that's essentially all.
So yeah, when finno-ugres entered steppe they become nomads, and when they entered lands not sutable to nomading they returned into sedentary. Such as any culture, including mongols, to be honest.
Thing is, people don't just stand up one day and says "hey, nomadic time!" - something should happen, such as climatic pessium of 3-6 centuries.

Were there any other Finno-Ugric peoples living in the steppe?

Problem is nobody really takes censuses there that days, all nations who was civilised enough to explore steppes with some anthropological thoughts had a lot of troubles that times, and nomadic tribes leaves not so many archeological traces as sedentary ones. We know Magyars because they became Hungarians, but we don't know who lost such chances.

Magyars, Alans, and the Khitans all have nomadic realms as well. None of them are Turks or Mongols.

Well, Khitans were mongols.

 

[Warial]

Magyars, Alans, and the Khitans all have nomadic realms as well. None of them are Turks or Mongols.

Yes, they have nomadic states (and Khitans were Para-Mongolic, originating from Xianbei just as Mongols), but the flavour and mechanics are based primarily on Mongol and Turkic examples. Alans don't have any exclusive events, even though they were clearly different culturally than their Turkic neighbours. Khitans likewise and Magyar settlement decision feels like an afterthought

 

[Karlingid]

Yes, they have nomadic states (and Khitans were Para-Mongolic, originating from Xianbei just as Mongols), but the flavour and mechanics are based primarily on Mongol and Turkic examples. Alans don't have any exclusive events, even though they were clearly different culturally than their Turkic neighbours. Khitans likewise and Magyar settlement decision feels like an afterthought

Yeah, the general consensus on the Alans is that they need a very large rework to match them not being just Tengri Russians. They were Iranian nomads, manifested in modern Ossetians, and were the pre-Turkic inhabitants of the Steppe.

Honestly, I'd say tack on Zunism, probably Persian units (Horse archer especially- looks perfect for a Scythian), and maybe Persian faces. That is, if we are talking about mechanics strictly not being introduced. They also need cultural titles to replace "Khan", "Khagan", etc.

 

[Pokonic]

Nomads in game are meant to represent only Steppe Nomads. All mechanics are tailored towards Turkic and Mongolic states. Ugro-Finns simply don't fit those mechanics.

Even more specifically, the nomad mechanics only really fit large confederations of nomadic tribes that cover vast swaths of territory. For every actual landed clan that acts as your vassal, it's presumed that there are several other smaller groups that could rise up against you present in your lands that are ultimately entirely subservient to the larger clans. Hence, provinces in central Arabia are tribal instead of nomadic.

 

[Karlingid]

Even more specifically, the nomad mechanics only really fit large confederations of nomadic tribes that cover vast swaths of territory. For every actual landed clan that acts as your vassal, it's presumed that there are several other smaller groups that could rise up against you present in your lands that are ultimately entirely subservient to the larger clans. Hence, provinces in central Arabia are tribal instead of nomadic.

Honestly I would say Arabia could work with nomads, although of course "Khan" and the like are still wrong, but Bedouin were famed cavalrymen, raiders, etc. The main issue is that Central Arabia only has 4 provinces, when theoretically each tribe could be given at least one province of its own. Even Yemen deserves more provinces, being the most developed region in the peninsula by far, and previously home to multiple kingdoms:

I mean, Zafar isn't even in the game at the start!

What's the point I'm making here? The Near East is drastically misrepresented, and we need more diversity in nomads.

 

[Pokonic]

Honestly I would say Arabia could work with nomads, although of course "Khan" and the like are still wrong, but Bedouin were famed cavalrymen, raiders, etc. The main issue is that Central Arabia only has 4 provinces, when theoretically each tribe could be given at least one province of its own. Even Yemen deserves more provinces, being the most developed region in the peninsula by far, and previously home to multiple kingdoms:

I mean, Zafar isn't even in the game at the start!

What's the point I'm making here? The Near East is drastically misrepresented, and we need more diversity in nomads.

Oh, I would love to have bedouin nomads, but at the moment the Nomad government isn't primed for it whatsoever (a cluster of Empire-tier nomad groups in the middle of Arabia would look rather odd, after all).

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

How would non-steppe nomads work? Would they use empty holdings as well? The steppe lands are already susceptible to conversion and conquest by settled peoples as it is, how would small patches of nomadic land work when surrounded by a bunch of settled peoples?

 

[n00bypl4y3r]

The steppe lands are already susceptible to conversion and conquest by settled peoples as it is

Not really anymore. Steppe land taken by non nomads becomes tribal holdings, and if you don't convert those into feudal holdings before your ruler dies you lose the holdings to either their previous nomadic owner of new ones. They don't become your culture and religion anymore. I list Crimea as Bulgaria in the 867 start several times this way.

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

Not really anymore. Steppe land taken by non nomads becomes tribal holdings, and if you don't convert those into feudal holdings before your ruler dies you lose the holdings to either their previous nomadic owner of new ones. They don't become your culture and religion anymore. I list Crimea as Bulgaria in the 867 start several times this way.

A lot of the non-steppe nomads also lived in areas where sedentary people lived, and these are all grouped under single counties in the game, so how would that work? Make more counties to separate them? It's not like the steppes where whole swathes are just devoid of large sedentary populations.