Nowadays, the "languages" are mutually intelligible 85% of the time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galician_language#Classification_and_relation_with_Portuguese), and that's after almost four centuries of being part of separate countries. Yes, I know culture's not the same as language, but it's significantly correlated. Does anyone know of any major differences between Galician and Portugese cultures around 1444 that would justify their separation?
Why are Galician and Portugese separate cultures?
- Thread starter BeyondExpectation
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Main thing, as far as i'm concerned, especially given how the game works, is that the Galician people have accepted the Castilian rule of several centuries (way before 1444). The Portuguese rejected the attempt of the Spanish monarchs to "diplo-annex" Portugal when it was a junior partner under Spain.
Sorry man, I believe you are drawing an ''irrelevant conclusion'' from the premisse.
The languages are close yes. But so are Portuguese and standard modern Spanish. Not sure were they get that percentage from, but a Spanish and a Portuguese can also understand each other, just like Czechs and Slovaks or Bosnians and Serbs.
Just because the languages are ''mutually intelligible'' and language is, granted, an important part of culture, that doesn't mean that they share the same culture.
Ofc the culture group is the same and both are close to each other. But in game, if we go to the detail of separating Aragonese from Catalan, from Andalusian, from Castilian... then I see absolutely no issue with Portuguese and Galician being apart.
The languages are close yes. But so are Portuguese and standard modern Spanish. Not sure were they get that percentage from, but a Spanish and a Portuguese can also understand each other, just like Czechs and Slovaks or Bosnians and Serbs.
Just because the languages are ''mutually intelligible'' and language is, granted, an important part of culture, that doesn't mean that they share the same culture.
Ofc the culture group is the same and both are close to each other. But in game, if we go to the detail of separating Aragonese from Catalan, from Andalusian, from Castilian... then I see absolutely no issue with Portuguese and Galician being apart.
since proto-portuguese-galician they're treated as diferente cultures, and that's like 1100's
Last edited:
Surely this would be modelled by subject-overlord interactions, not accepted cultures.
By whom exactly?
by both cutures since portuguese started drifiting after portugal's independence
"As a result of political division, Galician-Portuguese lost its unity when the County of Portugal separated from the Kingdom of Galicia in 1128 (a dependent kingdom of Leon) to establish the Kingdom of Portugal. The Galician and Portuguese versions of the language then diverged over time as they followed independent evolutionary paths.
As Portugal's territory was extended southward during the Reconquista, the increasingly distinctive Portuguese language was adopted by the people in those regions, supplanting the earlier Arabic and other Romance/Latin languages that were spoken in these conquered areas during the Moorish era. Meanwhile, Galician was influenced by the neighboring Leonese language, especially during the time of kingdoms of Leon and Leon-Castile, and in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries it has been influenced by Castilian. Two cities at the time of separation, Braga and Porto, were within the County of Portugal and have remained within Portugal. Further north, the cities of Lugo, A Coruña and the great medieval centre of Santiago de Compostela remained within Galicia."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galician-Portuguese#Divergence
Why would a Galician person think of themselves as Portuguese, either in 1444 or nowadays
also Portuguese was one of the oldest modern languages to be padronized in the medieval times, therefore either you'd need to throw that out or galician language would have to be purged to unite the two
This doesn't support your point that both cultures considered them separate since the 1100s, merely that they began to separate then.
They wouldn't, because Portuguese is a nationality. This is like asking "Name one kind of feather that isn't light" when we're talking about colour. Note that any direct consideration of nowadays is wholly irrelevant, as the game's not set now.
Last edited:
As there's no medieval Portuguese or Galician in game, how is this relevant?
Edit: I meant language proper. If you're saying that the standardisation of Portuguese made them inherently different enough that they should be separate cultures, then surely the lack of standardisation in many other languages would leave those even more internally different, and therefore worth being separate cultures.
Edit2: When exactly and to what degree was Portuguese standardised? I can find zero mention of any such process prior to modern times.
Last edited:
It's not a matter of language, it's a matter of folklore as well, and as far I can tell, the galicians have a folklore closer to castilians than to portuguese.
Reading through the posts, I think that at this point PedroLuiz has succesfully proven his point.
Using this argument, Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian would all be the same culture as well. Czech & Slovak, Finnish and Karelian (maybe Estonian), and plenty others I'm sure...
Correct, culture =/= language. It's also a game mechanic. In this case, it doesn't make too much of a difference mechanic-wise, but some other cases (see the endless Turkish/Levantine/Altaic threads...) it does.
Right, and 300+ years later, Galicians and Portuguese probably didn't consider themselves the same culture. Similar, sure, but not the same.
Of course it's relevant, because the medieval Galicians and medieval Portuguese eventually became the Galicians and Portuguese of the 1440's.
Because they ARE different. Just like Valencian culture from Catalonian. But the separatists propaganda has paied off and has ecpliped anything else behind their big lie. Hopefully we will have valencian culture which during the games timeline was far richer (first iberian Siglo de Oro de las letras, being valencian another language and as such is recognized in X, XI, XII, XV, XVII...historical documents and in the valencian current estatue of autonomy) and social and economically more important. But then again, catalonian nationalists propaganda has won apparently. Hopefully one day the davs will hear us out and include it as a separate culture and tag since there isnt such a thing as "catalan cointries" or "països catalans" as they call it. It just a wet dream of the catalaonian nazionalists imperialism. But that NEVER existed, being valencia a kingdom, proper KINGDOM of its own, while Catalonia were several counties being the most important the Barcelona Count. In fact the titles King Philip VI of Spain include amongst other KING of Valencia, KING of Mallorca, COUNT of Barcelona, and so on amongst many others.
I dont think Norweageans would like to be called swedes or danish or swedes called northern danish or icelanders called danish, right? Similar countries, similar languages, BUT DIFFERENT IN FACT. Then please, recognize galician and valencian's own culture as well and dont buy in the catalonian nazionalist's lies.
Sigh....
I dont think Norweageans would like to be called swedes or danish or swedes called northern danish or icelanders called danish, right? Similar countries, similar languages, BUT DIFFERENT IN FACT. Then please, recognize galician and valencian's own culture as well and dont buy in the catalonian nazionalist's lies.
Sigh....
[citation needed]
Did you read the article? It's merely "partial" for Danish versus Norwegian and Swedish, while "very high" for Galician and Portugese. So no, they wouldn't be.
If it doesn't make too much of a difference mechanic wise, the logical thing to do would be to have it historically accurate.
[citation needed]
Yeah, I have read the article and 85% or "very high" is "merely partial" as well. The reason those three are only partial is that they're on a continuum such that Norwegians understand both, but Danes and Swedes have a harder time understanding each other. You see similar gradients in Iberia as well. Plus, that's based on the modern languages. The split started around the 1200's and, even till the 20th century, Danish was basically the written standard for Norwegian.
The cultures composing the Langues d'oïl (in-game Norman, Francien, Burgundian) and Langue d'Oc (i.e. Occitan) (in-game Occitan, Gascon, Aquitanian) were all mutually intelligible as well, should they be combined?
Not really - You're the one proposing the change, yet you've only provided a single citation based a one aspect of culture i.e. language. I frankly don't care one way or the other, but you haven't provided enough evidence they should be the same. The devs likely have better reasoning/sources for the split, but I don't have the time to waste looking crap up.
I get that your original post was "asking" for differences (i.e. sources) to justify the split, but your responses have been dismissive. If you were really "just interested" and wanted sources for further research, "citation needed" is a pretty rude response. Truth is, at least in English, it's hard to find primary sources justifying either splitting or combining, but just the fact that "Galician" is different enough to mention, referenced often, and that they developed under different sovereigns, is enough for me to support keeping them separate.
Sure, the cultural designations are somewhat fuzzy and there's no clear rule for what's split and what's not. Language, by itself, isn't enough. That's like saying American, English, & Australian are the same; or Mexican, Argentinian, Chilean, Filipino, and Spanish are the same. And yes, I understand all these developed outside the game's timeframe, but that's irrelevant because they're all counter-examples to the your claim that "Their languages are highly similar, why aren't they the same culture."
Culture doesn’t mean language. For example in the Chinese culture group Zhili and Zhongyuan would have both spoken Mandarin, yet they’re represented as different cultures