Why are Austria and France historic rivals?

Why are Austria and France historic rivals?

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Vin55

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I would rather see Spain in that role if you go historic. Later France and Austria also had alliances eg in the 7 years War.

I would rather have Spain against England and France and vise versa.
Also Muscovy and Ottoman should hate each other (just for future wars there) and ofc Austria and Ottomans.
(For good Borders make Ottoman not ally Aqua Qunonulu and let him become a rival by event or so?)

What do you think?
 
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blobdomp

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i prefer less 'historic rivals' things. but for some recurring problems, like ottoman allying aq it should still exist
 
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MasterPaw

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France and Austria werent really good friends either
There was a big rivalry between François the 1st and Charles V (more about HRE than just austria though)
But i think most big powers were rival to each other (especially their neighbour), and forming alliance to maintain status quo only

Austria should be rival to ottomoan if not alredy i think so that they try to oppose them and not just let them eat all of balkans without worrying
 
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Its there for game-play reasons. AI alliance France/Austria became to strong.
 
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This also bothered me as well, I can see why historical rivals may need to be implemented but it always seemed like an unfinished mechanic. France-Austria fine, but why not France-England, or Muscovy/Russia-Ottoman or Spain-England etc. Either there should be way more historical rivals or none at all.
 
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Blobhemian

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During the game's time period French-Austrian (HRE) rivalry was the most defining one for European politics. Italian Wars, 30y War, Reunion Wars, War of Spanish Succession, France supporting Ottomans etc. were all major clashes of power between the Habsburgs and France. For three centuries the major geopolitical threat for France was the Austrian encirclement – the effort to directly connect Habsburg holdings in Italy, Germany and Lower Countries – so the main French goal in foreign politics was to prevent that from happening. Likewise, Austria struggled to keep growing French power in check in order to prevent French hegemony in mainland Europe.
 
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I’d like to see these modifiers decay as opposed to being static. It should be possible through constant effort (and lack of conflict) to mend the breech. Being able to marry France as Austria but not secure an alliance seems quite odd.

If the modifier declined by say 2 per month it would disappear in a little over 40 years, the regnal period of a monarch with a decent lifespan.

Making this a decaying modifier would allow to be used for general rivalries - one wouldn’t be able to turn around a day after removing rival status and instantly ally that state.
 
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Vin55

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During the game's time period French-Austrian (HRE) rivalry was the most defining one for European politics. Italian Wars, 30y War, Reunion Wars, War of Spanish Succession, France supporting Ottomans etc. were all major clashes of power between the Habsburgs and France. For three centuries the major geopolitical threat for France was the Austrian encirclement – the effort to directly connect Habsburg holdings in Italy, Germany and Lower Countries – so the main French goal in foreign politics was to prevent that from happening. Likewise, Austria struggled to keep growing French power in check in order to prevent French hegemony in mainland Europe.
the mistake you make is to set it as Austria France, it should at least until Spanish sucession war always be Spain who was the more active nemesis of France. Which makes the rivaly between Austria and France seems harsh when it was more the Frechn fightig of the Spanish who where on all broders.
 
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Vin55

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I’d like to see these modifiers decay as opposed to being static. It should be possible through constant effort (and lack of conflict) to mend the breech. Being able to marry France as Austria but not secure an alliance seems quite odd.

If the modifier declined by say 2 per month it would disappear in a little over 40 years, the rental period of a monarch with a decent lifespan.

Making this a decaying modifier would allow to be used for general rivalries - one wouldn’t be able to turn around a day after removing rival status and instantly ally that state.
That would be the best apart from ottoman Austria/Russia/poland there was not really a historic rivaly (maybe England/France) especially after the league Wars I mean Prussia was for example allied to France and later to GB you took what you could get. So that would help. I often dont like how the ai alliances are always set in stone. I mean In Italy if watch it France has 2 allies and those go ham for example but never Form anything because he will ally rivals or so so then after the inital conquest nothing happens. But that is another problem ^^
 

Blobhemian

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the mistake you make is to set it as Austria France, it should at least until Spanish sucession war always be Spain who was the more active nemesis of France. Which makes the rivaly between Austria and France seems harsh when it was more the Frechn fightig of the Spanish who where on all broders.
The most correct way to describe the rivalry would be French-Habsburg, but the game mechanics don't allow that. Milan, Low Countries etc. were indeed Spanish at first, but it was the Emperor who was competing for control with France along French/HRE borders. Spain was either directly under Emperor's control and later in decline, playing only supportive role for Austrian Habsburgs (e.g. during 30y war). Spain was not the real threat and the Pyrenees border didn't really become contested until the Reunion Wars, when Rousillon was claimed by France
 
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I would rather see Spain in that role if you go historic. Later France and Austria also had alliances eg in the 7 years War.

I would rather have Spain against England and France and vise versa.
Also Muscovy and Ottoman should hate each other (just for future wars there) and ofc Austria and Ottomans.
(For good Borders make Ottoman not ally Aqua Qunonulu and let him become a rival by event or so?)

What do you think?
To quote a great lady, 'No! No! No!'
French had an allaince with de trastamara with them winning the civil war pushing down on England who had supported the previous dynasty.
France supporting the opponents of Isabella who would then win the next civil war caused their alienation.
Ideally historic rivals could be more set to when they did develop, so end of castilian civil war could give a historic rival if France backs the wrong side, England's war of the Roses already had events where you lose opinion with those that sent aid to the losing side.

Ottomans rivaling AQ could tie into event chains with Eastern Anatolia rebelling, as well as Ottomans pushing their preferred Prince on AQ throne
The most correct way to describe the rivalry would be French-Habsburg, but the game mechanics don't allow that. Milan, Low Countries etc. were indeed Spanish at first, but it was the Emperor who was competing for control with France along French/HRE borders. Spain was either directly under Emperor's control and later in decline, playing only supportive role for Austrian Habsburgs (e.g. during 30y war). Spain was not the real threat and the Pyrenees border didn't really become contested until the Reunion Wars, when Rousillon was claimed by France
The rise of new dynasty could change your historic rival/friends, including allowances for rebel events E. G., so Burgundy can support a Yorkist uprising which if successful gives a historic friend
Once Spanish flops to Hapsburg they can get a rivalry with France
That would be the best apart from ottoman Austria/Russia/poland there was not really a historic rivaly (maybe England/France) especially after the league Wars I mean Prussia was for example allied to France and later to GB you took what you could get. So that would help. I often dont like how the ai alliances are always set in stone. I mean In Italy if watch it France has 2 allies and those go ham for example but never Form anything because he will ally rivals or so so then after the inital conquest nothing happens. But that is another problem ^^
The diplomatic revolution can be seen in game mechanics of GB refusing an Austrian Call to Arms, and then army strength too low for Austria to re-ally them
This also bothered me as well, I can see why historical rivals may need to be implemented but it always seemed like an unfinished mechanic. France-Austria fine, but why not France-England, or Muscovy/Russia-Ottoman or Spain-England etc. Either there should be way more historical rivals or none at all.
France England does exist? Although France GB doesn't iirc
Russia ottoman gets irritated over claims
Spanish England religion already does that, along with competing colonisers
 
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dynalon

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France England does exist? Although France GB doesn't iirc
Nope:
rivals.png

( https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Relations )

I would guess that France and England/GB aren't historical rivals so that getting that PU as England is an actual reward. Although it's possible to change that status during a campaign (like Sweden and Denmark, via event), so it would be possible add the modifier, but let it be removable, for example via mission reward, so that AI England and AI France are guaranteed to remain hostile throughout the game.
 
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Its there for game-play reasons. AI alliance France/Austria became to strong.
Russia/France, France/Spain, France/Ottomans, Ottomans/Ming, etc aren't blocked by historical alliances despite being objectively stronger in some games when considering AI. Thus the "too strong alliance" rationale is arbitrary/internally inconsistent to EU 4.

During the game's time period French-Austrian (HRE) rivalry was the most defining one for European politics. Italian Wars, 30y War, Reunion Wars, War of Spanish Succession, France supporting Ottomans etc. were all major clashes of power between the Habsburgs and France.
None of which would necessarily have existed in alternate history. This game allows for scenarios like "England, Burgundy, and Castile gangbang France to rump state status". I've diplo-vassalized France with their capital in Africa. It doesn't happen often, but it happens. And in these worlds, Austria is still a "historical rival".

That's not a mechanic based on historical consistency, that's fairly land whimsy magic. France should be Austria's "historical rival" in such games about as much as Kongo should be Austria's "historical rival".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Spanish_War_(1635–1659) Until this date it should be as I stated afterwards it is as you said. The decline of Spain came after this War and the height of the rivaly was the Spanish sucession War which ended in a costly draw. But it opened new alliances for all powers.
Yet this magic still happens in worlds where the Iberian union never happens and neither Castile nor Aragon ever have significant involvement with HRE or low countries. As if that wouldn't change historical relations between the empire and France.
 
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France-Austria was added relatively recently to the other ones and it improved the game. They were allies very often due to rivaling for example Burgundy. After that was added European conflicts got more interesting in my opinion.
 
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It all started with the chin. Louis was jealous of that magnificent chin of Charles.
download.jpeg
 
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Nope: View attachment 655122
( https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Relations )

I would guess that France and England/GB aren't historical rivals so that getting that PU as England is an actual reward. Although it's possible to change that status during a campaign (like Sweden and Denmark, via event), so it would be possible add the modifier, but let it be removable, for example via mission reward, so that AI England and AI France are guaranteed to remain hostile throughout the game.
Which patch changed that? It used to be making PU France semi hard to deal with. Deffo remember it with rule brittania. Hungary loses historical friend with Austria if they reject ladislaus' replacement, and Poland teutons lose historic rival if teutons gets vassalised. There's also the event that drops historical friendship day after a battle. So you want to minimise your battles as castile PUing Portugal
 

blobdomp

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so when it says "historic rivals' does it mean rebels before the start date, or rivals after the start date?
 

Vin55

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It is a mix of both atm France and Austria only become Rivals when Burgundy died so you could tie that in as event. Because Austria withouth Burgudy is more of a pushover than a threat to France. But yeah Ottoman Byzantium was a real thing even before game start obviously. Russia and Ottoman which was with Austria and Ottoman the longest rivaly in history does not really exist which is stupid, because of important that was. Without it the Ottomans would probably have expaned more in the steppes and crimea...
 
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wingren013

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In reality, the Pyrenees were an impassable barrier for conquest to both the Spanish and the French. So French territorial ambitions lay in the conquest of the low countries, northern Italy, and the Rhineland, both of which were Austrian territory due to being part of the HRE. Austria is protecting the primary expansion route of France. They shouldn't be proper allies.

Later on, when Spain become part of the Hapsburg empire, it meant that France was surrounded by the Hapsburgs, and French foreign policy oriented itself specifically to oppose them. This would have probably happened sooner or later anyways, as the Hapsburgs were the primary source in thwarting French expansionism in various coalitions.

Remember that France, a catholic country, supported the protestant side of the 30 year's war specifically because they were fighting Hapsburgs.
 
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