Why all the Portugal nerfs?

[Grand Historian]

But here you can't just say "Spain". You have to take into account their other European possessions...

Well, the discipline and professionalism of the Tercios probably factored into it...

Besides, Spain's other European possessions arguably caused it more trouble than good.

 

[Moridin997]

There were no mountains, but there were hills

Not according to Pdx.

Oh Mighty Wiz, please fix this outrage...!!! Add Hills to Glorious Central Portugal!

Amén...

 

[Magean]

What happens if Castile + Aragon + France : Portugal? Why is Castile special?

I don't see France allying with Castille and Aragon to smash Portugal. Without the Historical Friend modifier, Portugal and Castille would be natural rivals ; as is already Castille with France and Aragon.

Besides, you didn't answer my question. Do you want to give Portugal an army that would match that of Castille because it historically beat the Spaniards on multiple occasions and retained its borders ? In game terms, that would mean the death of Castille and the abortion of Spain. Portugal would reliably go, conquer and expand within Europe.

I don't see anything special in Castille. To me, it sounds more like you want Portugal to receive a special treatment.

 

[GamingHUD]

Honestly, I think that modifier's at least half there to protect Castile from an early-game Portugal-Aragon alliance.

Don't know why this is being downvoted. It may not be the reasoning in actuality, but I definitely agree that it protects Castille as much as, if not more than, Portugal early game.

Anyway, to address OP points:

Trade is by far the most important thing when balancing Portugal, and something that had a huge influence IRL, therefore it should be the main thing tackled when making changes in the Iberian peninsula. The thing i would suggest is the biggest issue, is the fact that both Spain and Portugal belong to the seville tradenode. This makes them have competition for trade income, and weakens both, in the current state of the game. Other major colonizers, such as france and England have their own end trade node, with little competition in it (the netherlands hardly ever manages to sucessfully form), so the fact that 2 major colonizers must share the same node means they are both being nerfed. his issue is copounded even more due to the fact that seville is now no longer an End node, meaning they will now be competing with the italians as well.

Portugal are capable of throwing so much trade power into Sevilla that this change doesn't really mean much to them. AI Portugal will still be one of, if not the, richest AI nation in the game post-CS unless the player interferes them (as is the case now). As it is now, Spain and Portugal sharing Sevilla trade node is to their mutual benefit (I'd argue it favours Portugal more, but whatever); their competition are countries trying to steer away from Sevilla further upstream, of which there are many notable powers doing so. This doesn't change much with Sevilla no longer being an end node, either. Castille/Spain will still want to steer toward Sevilla regardless of whether their trade capital is in that node or in Genoa.

I'd argue that your suggestion of splitting Sevilla into Lisbon and Sevilla would be a far larger nerf to both Portugal and Castille/Spain than Sevilla no longer being an end node.

Lets face it, portugal is extremely weak in land forces, which while having some basis in reality, is way overblown. For example During the war of castillian sucession portugal fielded armies comparable to those of the castilians Whereas in game you can barely field half of castiles troops, which just seems ridiculous.

I would propose to fix this by adding 1 province (abrantes) that would come from a split of the Lisbon/castelo branco provinces. This is a province that over the time period was the site of many battles like during the seven years war, or the napoleonic wars not only that, but the adition of this province would allow a fortress to be placed there and essentially make it "the Key to Lisbon" and serve a similar purpose as the Elvas Lines.

They're not, really. AI Portugal gets so rich off trade that they're able to (and do, at least for me) field armies quite in excess of their force limit. It's more of an issue of how the AI uses those forces, to my mind, as a player can utilise them far more efficiently.

Having said that, I do agree that Portugal could use a couple more provinces/development buff. But North Africa (specifically Morocco, I guess) could use a look at, at the same time, if that happens.

And finally we must talk about colonization. Portugal is primarily a colonizar and a trader, and therefore any balance regarding it will influence it. Therefore the change to make the first idea group at level 5 rather than 4 is a straight up nerf to portugal. As it is portugal is already artificially prevented from colonizing for a decade, and this will just make it worse.

Therefore i propose a change to the portuguese traditions, replace the +5% Trade efficiency with a +1 colonist.

This allows portugal to colonize africa, as it did IRL, and speeds up the way to india, making it as attractive as the new world, without allowing it to colonize the new world (since explorers can only go through ocean when they have quest for the new world at level 5). This means the new world will continue to be competed for, while giving portugal more oportunities to expand early on and build on things that can pay off later on.

I understand that this is a big change, but i truly believe that there is little downside in incentivising portugal to fulfil their missions and take advantage of certain events, because otherwise we get a portugal with events in india (GOA!) when all it did the entire game was focus on america. This would make asia and africa just as attractive to it as the new world.

That change isn't a direct nerf to Portugal. It's a nerf to all colonizers. And as it stands, Portugal and Castille/Spain are already dominating the new world at the expense of others, so throwing Portugal an additional colonist only compounds that issue.

These Portugal "nerfs" continue to get blown way out of proportion.

 

[Moridin997]

Well, the discipline and professionalism of the Tercios probably factored into it...

Besides, Spain's other European possessions arguably caused it more trouble than good.

True, the Tercios kicked some serious ass back then. However, their possessions were an automatic positive asset in a war vs France because it allowed Spain to threaten them from all sides and prevented France from focusing on their heartlands (the Peninsula...).

 

[Magean]

I'll have to agree with BFTeixeira here: why is it that Castile dying to a gangbang is a valid argument to make it stronger? That's true to nearly everyone. We simply need to have good reasons to *not* gangbang them other then making them artificially stronger...

How is Castille artificially made that stronger ?

 

[Moridin997]

How is Castille artificially made that stronger ?

Apologies, I misread your post. I thought you were arguing for a stronger Castile based on the above gangbang example...

In truth, I agree with nearly everyone when they say that Castile should be stronger than Portugal. Just not so strong as to make their neighbors' military situation hopeless...

 

[Grand Historian]

True, the Tercios kicked some serious ass back then. However, their possessions were an automatic positive asset in a war vs France because it allowed Spain to threaten them from all sides and prevented France from focusing on their heartlands (the Peninsula...).

Well, it can be argued that the Eighty Years War was the real cause for the decline of the Spanish Empire and not the sinking of the armada, but their Italian possessions were almost entirely beneficial.

But if there's one army that's underpowered in comparison to it's historical counterpart, I would actually say it's Spain's, since there's nothing to demonstrate how they managed to pretty much beat France. France can usually when left up to the AI because, despite Spain's early morale bonus, France has far more manpower, more allies and vassals, and will usually get to Mil's 4 and 5 before them. And of course, this is all before they unlock Elan. Maybe giving Spain an Infantry Combat Ability Idea (+15%, nerf Devout Catholicism to +1 PI and merge it with Spanish Inquisition?) could better balance it out?

 

[Haldan]

You can argue that they need a nerf or something, but stating that they "sat in the shadow of the Spanish Empire, smacking about some foreign island states and randomly strolling armies around Ethiopia." and did little of note just shows a very clear lack of understanding about basic early European colonial history. The kind of income they get from trade is pretty historical, it's just the lack of competition and no way to cause a decline (Short of taking their CNs out of them) that are ahistorical!

Having a good economy doesn't instantly make you a military powerhouse able to conquer all of North Africa and CV it to Portuguese. Sure, the Maghrebi nations are weak. But then again I've more than once seen Portugal have an army around 100k, sometimes and more than often larger than Spain/Castille's.

Portugal had a good trade economy, sure. But does that really make them a lucky nation and capable of all the vile, foul misdeeds and atrocities they commit in the game?

 

[Magean]

Well, it can be argued that the Eighty Years War was the real cause for the decline of the Spanish Empire and not the sinking of the armada, but their Italian possessions were almost entirely beneficial.

But if there's one army that's underpowered in comparison to it's historical counterpart, I would actually say it's Spain's, since there's nothing to demonstrate how they managed to pretty much beat France. France can usually when left up to the AI because, despite Spain's early morale bonus, France has far more manpower, more allies and vassals, and will usually get to Mil's 4 and 5 before them. And of course, this is all before they unlock Elan. Maybe giving Spain an Infantry Combat Ability Idea (+15%, nerf Devout Catholicism to +1 PI and merge it with Spanish Inquisition?) could better balance it out?

France's early game was nerfed because the vassals were absorbed and replaced with core provinces plagued by high autonomy. On the long (and even middle) run it's a buff, but for the first decades they'll be able to bring less troops to war.

 

[Incompetent]

The development system sounds like the best thing that could have happened to Portugal, really. Previously it was a rich country, but suffered chronic manpower issues and was vulnerable to an invasion if its ships were out in the Indian Ocean or Spain gave access. Now, you channel your spare mil points and ducats into turning Portugal into a great big barracks/fortress, problem solved. (Yes, larger powers can also muscle up at home, but proportionally the effect is greater on a small country, plus Portugal actually has a reduced building cost NI to encourage them to build up.)

 

[BFTeixeira]

I don't see France allying with Castille and Aragon to smash Portugal. Without the Historical Friend modifier, Portugal and Castille would be natural rivals ; as is already Castille with France and Aragon.

Besides, you didn't answer my question. Do you want to give Portugal an army that would match that of Castille because it historically beat the Spaniards on multiple occasions and retained its borders ? In game terms, that would mean the death of Castille and the abortion of Spain. Portugal would reliably go, conquer and expand within Europe.

I don't see anything special in Castille. To me, it sounds more like you want Portugal to receive a special treatment.

You want castile to be able to beat portugal and aragon, which never happened historically, and im the one asking special treatment?

 

[Boxrof]

Well, I would assume that Portugal would have really high development, so that would balance out your army and province problems with Portugal. It's a prime example of a nation going tall.

 

[BFTeixeira]

Well, it can be argued that the Eighty Years War was the real cause for the decline of the Spanish Empire and not the sinking of the armada, but their Italian possessions were almost entirely beneficial.

But if there's one army that's underpowered in comparison to it's historical counterpart, I would actually say it's Spain's, since there's nothing to demonstrate how they managed to pretty much beat France. France can usually when left up to the AI because, despite Spain's early morale bonus, France has far more manpower, more allies and vassals, and will usually get to Mil's 4 and 5 before them. And of course, this is all before they unlock Elan. Maybe giving Spain an Infantry Combat Ability Idea (+15%, nerf Devout Catholicism to +1 PI and merge it with Spanish Inquisition?) could better balance it out?

Iberian Peninsula is already off balance. Dont make it worse.

 

[Grand Historian]

France's early game was nerfed because the vassals were absorbed and replaced with core provinces plagued by high autonomy. On the long (and even middle) run it's a buff, but for the first decades they'll be able to bring less troops to war.

It's more of a buff than it is a nerf in the long run, and even then arguably an indirect buff immediately because it frees up France to make more allies. It's also at the cost of historical accuracy.

 

[Grand Historian]

Iberian Peninsula is already off balance. Dont make it worse.

You're right; we need to give Castile back it's cores on Granada.

 

[BFTeixeira]

The development system sounds like the best thing that could have happened to Portugal, really. Previously it was a rich country, but suffered chronic manpower issues and was vulnerable to an invasion if its ships were out in the Indian Ocean or Spain gave access. Now, you channel your spare mil points and ducats into turning Portugal into a great big barracks/fortress, problem solved. (Yes, larger powers can also muscle up at home, but proportionally the effect is greater on a small country, plus Portugal actually has a reduced building cost NI to encourage them to build up.)

Too bad it's only for payers...

 

[grommile]

Too bad it's only for payers...

Something has to be, and it has to be something important.

 

[BFTeixeira]

Something has to be, and it has to be something important.

Not when it's a balance changer. And even worst when it replaces another core feature.

 

[Moridin997]

Well, it can be argued that the Eighty Years War was the real cause for the decline of the Spanish Empire and not the sinking of the armada, but their Italian possessions were almost entirely beneficial.

But if there's one army that's underpowered in comparison to it's historical counterpart, I would actually say it's Spain's, since there's nothing to demonstrate how they managed to pretty much beat France. France can usually when left up to the AI because, despite Spain's early morale bonus, France has far more manpower, more allies and vassals, and will usually get to Mil's 4 and 5 before them. And of course, this is all before they unlock Elan. Maybe giving Spain an Infantry Combat Ability Idea (+15%, nerf Devout Catholicism to +1 PI and merge it with Spanish Inquisition?) could better balance it out?

The problem in EU4 isn't so much troop quality (though they could use a slight buff) but rather army size. The truth is that, for a long time during the late 16th - early 17th centuries, Spain's armies outnumbered the French nearly 2:1 (though not all of those were actually engaging the French...), due to loads of gold from the Americas allowing them "go over forcelimits" and attracting tens of thousands of mercenaries to their banners.


Suggestion: a great power with a high percentage of gold income could have some triggered modifiers increasing the size of their mercenary poll, to simulate the allure of gold...