Why all the Portugal nerfs?

[Purplebleeder]

of all the Iberian countries, I don't know why you're complaining about Portugal, after all it looks to me that Granada is still in the same relative position it was before...
Remember this is a country that maintained it's independence until an Iberian Wedding, a revolt at home, and allies not showing up, caused it to fall.... if i remember my history correctly....
you want a weaker relative Spain, remove Castile's Cores on Granada, make them fight to get the country. I've always found it annoying that Castile has Cores on Granada, the Ottomans on the Turkish Beyliks, and France on English Held providences for over 200 years...(ones without Costimopolitan as the main Culture.)

They stated that they are removing Castile's cores in Granda in the upcoming patch.

 

[Magean]

They're so underpowered that you had to come up with a 'Historical Friends' modifier so it wouldn't be annexed by Castile before 1500.

But this is due to how battles work in this game. Everything else being equal (same technology, lucky nations on both sides, etc.) the larger country tends to win. Or it will keep coming until it wins. It's the same mechanics that doom Albania to immediate annexation and can't model Skanderbeg's achievements : the big guy wins, almost invariably (at least in AI vs AI wars) under normal circumstances. I don't know how to fix this or it will ever get fixed, but it has little to do with trade or economics.

Speaking of it, Portugal isn't underpowered economically with its ludicrous and long-lasting income. It usually colonizes more than historically : multiple fat colonial nations (instead of just Brazil), the entire West African coastline (it's true, though, than Mozambique remains Kilwan) and not so rarely much more than Goa in India.

The main ahistorical issue Portugal has to deal with is liberty desire in the colonies, because its force limit is too low. But that's another issue that has much more to do with LD calculation than with Portugal's own strength.

 

[Metz]

Granada could also be split into Granada and Malaga.

 

[BFTeixeira]

Play with them in the new DLC before you complain Portugal have been nerfed. Until we have seen how strong a tall, peaceful colonier can get with the new development system we cant analyse how strong Portugal will be.

Personally, I feel they will be incredibly strong.

I won't buy the DLC. Are you saying that Portugal can only be strong in the complete game? Hmmmm...

 

[Moridin997]

First of all, I'm Portuguese and in no way do I think that Portugal is underpowered. On the contrary...

However, trying to play it the historical way is both a fun and frustrating experience. This, we could argue, is where Portugal is underpowered: the historical course is far less rewarding and practical than a blobbing fest across the Americas (and God forgive the abomination that is Portuguese Siberia...).

Portugal could perhaps do with another province and a bit more development since the rest of Iberia got quite a few new provinces over the last patches.

They're hardly massively underpowered though.

Yes, please! With the new Fort system, one or two additional provinces are a godsend. It would finally allow the historical strategy of having strategic fortifications delaying enemy incursions while a proper army is gathered. The English might finally have enough time to send an expeditionary force before the whole country is overrun


P.S.: Wiz, has there been improvements towards a Route to India focused game in this patch?


Suggestion: maybe the AI could stop colonizing in Colonial Regions once it perceives that the combined might of its colonies would cause Liberty Desire to skyrocket. Then this colonizer (e.g. Portugal) would have to focus on other continents (e.g. the Indian Ocean).

 

[BFTeixeira]

But this is due to how battles work in this game. Everything else being equal (same technology, lucky nations on both sides, etc.) the larger country tends to win. Or it will keep coming until it wins. It's the same mechanics that doom Albania to immediate annexation and can't model Skanderbeg's achievements : the big guy wins, almost invariably (at least in AI vs AI wars) under normal circumstances. I don't know how to fix this or it will ever get fixed, but it has little to do with trade or economics.

Speaking of it, Portugal isn't underpowered economically with its ludicrous and long-lasting income. It usually colonizes more than historically : multiple fat colonial nations (instead of just Brazil), the entire West African coastline (it's true, though, than Mozambique remains Kilwan) and not so rarely much more than Goa in India.

The main ahistorical issue Portugal has to deal with is liberty desire in the colonies, because its force limit is too low. But that's another issue that has much more to do with LD calculation than with Portugal's own strength.

Portugal is militarily underpowered. People tend to forget that while considering Spain a super-power, Portugal broke free from the kingdom of Leon and Castile, and maintained it's independence for almost 900 years amidst countless wars between them, never surrendering it's borders.

 

[grommile]

They're so underpowered that you had to come up with a 'Historical Friends' modifier so it wouldn't be annexed by Castile before 1500.

Honestly, I think that modifier's at least half there to protect Castile from an early-game Portugal-Aragon alliance.

 

[JStrayer]

It is inconceivable that anyone could consider Portugal in a poor or weak state, it is absolutely a top tier nation at start and one of the easiest nations to dominate the game with, whether its conquering Europe, becoming ludicrously rich, owning the new world or all 3.

I'm not saying it needs nerfed or anything, again it is inconceivable that anyone could make the claim that Portugal is a weak or poor nation.

 

[Moridin997]

Portugal is militarily underpowered. People tend to forget that while considering Spain a super-power, Portugal broke free from the kingdom of Leon and Castile, and maintained it's independence for almost 900 years amidst countless wars between them, never surrendering it's borders.

With trade money, Portugal is quite capable of matching the Spanish military. The problem is that the AI isn't good enough while fighting as an underdog. A good player would wait for his allies and use the money to hire mercenaries (historical) and let the enemy siege the border fortresses (historical) until he had a big enough army to halt and role back the invasion (historical). This is the Restoration War in a nutshell.

The only thing that isn't really correct is the lack of a depiction of guerrilla warfare. We could almost say the Spanish learned that from us (the hard way...).

Hostile attrition NI?

 

[BFTeixeira]

With trade money, Portugal is quite capable of matching the Spanish military. The problem is that the AI isn't good enough while fighting as an underdog. A good player would wait for his allies and use the money to hire mercenaries (historical) and let the enemy siege the border fortresses (historical) until he had a big enough army to halt and role back the invasion (historical). This is the Restoration War in a nutshell.

The only thing that isn't really correct is the lack of a depiction of guerrilla warfare. We could almost say the Spanish learned that from us (the hard way...).

Hostile attrition NI?

In game, Portugal should be balanced with Castile, without trade. It's not like Portugal only managed to keep castillians out after building a trade empire. They did a massive invasion in 1385, and got their a**** kicked back to the Stone ages by a portuguese army helped by a small english contingent (200 bowman if i remember correctly). Portugal managed to fight Castile without guerrila warfare, and with straight up battlefield confrontation.

And my problem is not about Portugal in a players hand. It's about the AI Portugal.

 

[Moridin997]

In game, Portugal should be balanced with Castile, without trade. It's not like Portugal only managed to keep castillians out after building a trade empire. They did a massive invasion in 1385, and got their a**** kicked back to the Stone ages by a portuguese army helped by a small english contingent (200 bowman if i remember correctly). Portugal managed to fight Castile without guerrila warfare, and with straight up battlefield confrontation.

And my problem is not about Portugal in a players hand. It's about the AI Portugal.

The AI can't handle Portuguese awesomeness. Period

As for 1385, we had a godlike general on our side vs an utterly mediocre on theirs. In-game, it would be like a 5 shock 5 maneuver vs 1 shock 0 maneuver. I think we could take 1:4 odds with those generals... Plus, there was already some small amount of guerrilla back then thanks to a growing sense of proto-nationalism.

 

[Magean]

In game, Portugal should be balanced with Castile, without trade. It's not like Portugal only managed to keep castillians out after building a trade empire. They did a massive invasion in 1385, and got their a**** kicked back to the Stone ages by a portuguese army helped by a small english contingent (200 bowman if i remember correctly). Portugal managed to fight Castile without guerrila warfare, and with straight up battlefield confrontation.

And my problem is not about Portugal in a players hand. It's about the AI Portugal.

So you want Portugal to be able to consistently field armies the size of Castille's ? Because that's what it would mean ingame. Considering that Portugal has few natural enemies to begin with, that would make it one of the most overpowered nations. Portugal + Aragon + France : poor Castille.

 

[BFTeixeira]

So you want Portugal to be able to consistently field armies the size of Castille's ? Because that's what it would mean ingame. Considering that Portugal has few natural enemies to begin with, that would make it one of the most overpowered nations. Portugal + Aragon + France : poor Castille.

What happens if Castile + Aragon + France : Portugal? Why is Castile special?

 

[Grand Historian]

Portugal's military problems are more because of Castile's strength. Spain is a balance to France here, so Castile/Spain are rather strong, despite in reality they were largely under populated relative to most of Europe with a few good urban centers to balance it.

Spain also kicked France senseless throughout most of the sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries. Aside from that, I completely agree with your post (and the majority of others here).

I can, however, completely get behind anyone advocating carving up Aljento into more provinces.

 

[BFTeixeira]

The AI can't handle Portuguese awesomeness. Period

As for 1385, we had a godlike general on our side vs an utterly mediocre on theirs. In-game, it would be like a 5 shock 5 maneuver vs 1 shock 0 maneuver. I think we could take 1:4 odds with those generals... Plus, there was already some small amount of guerrilla back then thanks to a growing sense of proto-nationalism.

It still was a 6,5k army destroying a 31k army... With no mountains!

 

[Moridin997]

So you want Portugal to be able to consistently field armies the size of Castille's ? Because that's what it would mean ingame. Considering that Portugal has few natural enemies to begin with, that would make it one of the most overpowered nations. Portugal + Aragon + France : poor Castille.

I'll have to agree with BFTeixeira here: why is it that Castile dying to a gangbang is a valid argument to make it stronger? That's true to nearly everyone. We simply need to have good reasons to *not* gangbang them other then making them artificially stronger...

 

[Moridin997]

It still was a 6,5k army destroying a 31k army... With no mountains!

There were no mountains, but there were hills

 

[BFTeixeira]

Spain also kicked France senseless throughout most of the sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries. Aside from that, I completely agree with your post (and the majority of others here).

I believe the main problem of the game it's the HRE. It is ridiculously strong, and because of that, France has to be super strong, and because of it, Castile has to be way stronger than their neighbours. It's a cascade effect.

 

[BFTeixeira]

There were no mountains, but there were hills

Not according to Pdx.

 

[Moridin997]

Spain also kicked France senseless throughout most of the sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries. Aside from that, I completely agree with your post (and the majority of others here).

But here you can't just say "Spain". You have to take into account their other European possessions...